The Connection Between Creativity and Divinity | Mackenzie Brim

PROFITABLE TALKS...

In this conversation, Christian Brim interviews his daughter, Mackenzie Brim, about her journey as a creative. Mackenzie is a figurative oil painter who also teaches art classes, does murals, and takes on various creative projects. They discuss the struggle between following one's passion and making money, the different approaches to creativity in commercial art versus deeply personal art, and the importance of creating without thinking about the business aspect. They also touch on the role of AI in creative work and the connection between creativity and divinity.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

• Creativity and making money are not mutually exclusive; it's about finding a balance between following your passion and finding commercial success.
• Creating deeply personal and resonant art requires being in a creative bubble without thinking about the business aspect.
• Different types of creativity exist, from finding alternative ways to use or do something to creating something entirely new.
• True art comes from a connection to something greater than ourselves, whether it's called divinity or inspiration.
• AI can replicate formulaic and commercial art, but true creativity and inspiration are unique to each individual.

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Transcript

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Christian Brim (00:00)
In my opinion, to have true creativity in something that is truly born of soul and purpose, you can't be thinking business sense when you're truly creating. Now, I do think that creative people can use that skillset and apply it in other ways. That doesn't mean like, you know, I mean, obviously that's like a different thing to me. But I think, you know, and you get a lot of this when you watch TV nowadays and like all these TV shows, like we were talking about are so formulaic and someone,

is like, so the TV nowadays, right? It's like, it's a lot of it is very formulaic. A lot of it is very like, I would just say it like lacks a little bit of soul to it. And that's like the whole thing with AI. And we can talk about that in a minute now too. It's like taking that creativity and using it in just a sense of like just replicating, but also like there are creative people involved in those projects. You know what I mean? Hey creative, are you ready to discuss profits, the money, the ways to make it happen?

The Profitable Creative Podcast is for you. The creative, how you define it. Videographers, photographers, entrepreneurs, marketing agencies, you get it. CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the internet where you will learn to turn your passion into profit. I'm your host, Christian Brim. Today with me, I have a very special guest, Mackenzie Brim, aka Mack Brim, my daughter. Hi, Mackenzie. Hello. Thanks for having me, Duel. absolutely. It is absolutely my pleasure.

So I know your story, but tell everybody what you do as a creative. By trade, I'm a figurative oil painter. So that's what I specialize in is figurative oil painting, which realistic oil painting, but by nature of just being in this world and having to be a hustler, I do a little bit of everything. So I teach art classes, I do events, I do murals, my pretty much will do anything for a dollar. So that's kind of the realm that I'm in.

But yeah, so go ahead. Well, I was also going to add voice acting to that. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. are the voice of the podcast intro. I know. I will do anything. And I did that for free. I didn't even do that for a dollar. So that just goes to show up down to clown. even starred when I lived in California. I starred in my friend Evan's short film that probably will never see the light of day. Yeah. So I'll pretty much do anything. Well, I'll fill in some holes there that I think might be interesting.

Kim? You graduated college with a degree in art, correct? Kind of. graduated my degree, I have a bachelor's in journalism, but my minor was in studio art. But you really didn't intend to do that as a career when you started college? I had no intentions of doing anything.

my goal is to do as little as possible. remember your freshman year. Yes. remember that. goal was to do as little work as possible. Yeah. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, to be honest, when I graduated and I just ever since then, just kind of been exploring a career path. And then I don't know that I've really settled on one. So I've mentioned this in several instances, how, I had no idea.

that was your intent until you were graduating and said, yeah, I'm going to move to Dallas and do art full time. And I was like, what was it a surprise to you that you made that decision? don't know. I think I was just looking for something else. Like I think I knew what I wanted to do, but I think I was just looking for anything else that could be fulfilling and financially stable. And so that was kind of like, you know,

I couldn't really find anything else that I was interested in. And so then when I graduated, was working at, my friend had a gallery. It was like a very small little like gallery shop with like local artists. And I was working there and then it was like pretty boring most of the day. So I started just painting my own stuff. And then like, that was when I really first, did it a little bit in college, but started like posting more of my work on social media and like trying to sell it. And that's kind of where that started.

was in that era. And then when I moved to Dallas, that's kind of when it really started picking up like selling online and like using social media and all of that kind of stuff and selling my personal paintings, my personal work. And then I was working, I also got a job teaching at a center down there, a school down there, teaching art and doing like community outreach stuff with the arts. And then also working at like a paint and sip.

So like, was just kind of like taking any jobs they could get to supplement that other income. So you and I have had this conversation a lot and we're going to have it again for the benefit of our listeners. Talk about the struggle between following your passion and doing creative work that is meaningful and fulfilling to you versus making money. Yeah.

Well, so I think like, it's funny because I say my ideal, but I think if I had this, I don't know that I would necessarily even enjoy it. But like the ideal, I think, in my field and the kind of work I'm doing in figurative oil painting is like you get big gallery representation. They're selling your work for lots of money. have solo shows, you know, you go to exhibitions, they sell your work, yada yada. So you're

day to day is just producing that work and then someone else is selling it for you. And I say that's the ideal because like at the end of the day, the work comes first for me. When I say the work, mean like my oil paintings. You know what I mean? What I'm doing there, what I'm exploring in that realm comes first for me like creatively. And that doesn't mean I don't enjoy other things I do. And that's why I say I don't know if I had that exact experience of like being represented by a big gallery and doing things that way like

if I would even necessarily enjoy that, I don't know, who knows? Because I do enjoy the social aspect of teaching and being around other people and helping inspire others. And I like the variety of consulting on other creative projects and that as well. I think that that ideal is like, there's always room for that. There's always room for me to be making those paintings and selling those paintings. But like I said, that can even get kind of monotonous, especially in like,

how isolating it is, because it is a very solo experience to be making, producing paintings in a studio by yourself and then someone selling them. It's a very isolating experience. So I think the supplement to that of also teaching and doing these other projects like murals or community projects or those kinds of things, that can also be very lucrative. I don't even know really what question I'm answering anymore. I'm just talking. I love it. And I do know that it's isolating because you won't let anybody in your studio.

Yeah, well, I don't like people's energy. I don't trust it. I've been told that many times. Yeah. I've been told that many times. Yeah. I had a guest on that was talking about Andy Warhol and how much of a commercialist he was, you know, as an artist, like he was really big into prints and those types of things. Do you look at someone like

Andy Warhol and say, it to Georgia O'Keefe, who I know that you love. Do you see any, I guess, problem with that arrangement with, with what he did, or Georgia O'Keefe did as far as staying true to the passion while still making money? Well, I think it just depends on what your passion and your intention is. think someone like Georgia O'Keefe who like is making work that is deeply personal and resonant.

and intimate in a lot of ways is completely different than someone like Andy Warhol, which I don't think either one of those could do the other's job, right? I don't think Andy Warhol could make intimate, vulnerable paintings, and I don't think Georgia O'Keeffe could make mass-produced commercial work. And it's mass-produced now. I you see Georgia O'Keeffe everywhere. You see that those paintings are everywhere, but in her lifetime, it was completely different. So I say that to say like...

those two people are on very different trajectories as far as their work goes. There's a lot of commercial artists and there's a lot of commercial artists who are happy making and have a specific skill set to make like, you the cows you see at Hobby Lobby for sale, you know what I mean? And like that is a specific skill set. And that is like, you know, some people are very passionate about that and really enjoy that. There are people who are really passionate about, you know, making work that's that is saleable and that, you know,

And not that all, I mean, I think obviously any work is sellable. just think it depends on your market. But as I'm saying, it's those two things are because those people are playing to their strengths. Do you know what I mean? And like carving out something that works for them. But I don't think that necessarily works for everybody. Well, you, made a comment very early on before you really got into it that as I recall, you said, I don't really care about all of that.

business stuff, I just want to make what I want to make. And it sounds like what you're saying is that someone like Georgia O'Keeffe did what she wanted to do, what was personal to her and, and the commercial intent was secondary. Like if somebody bought it, great. So do you think that those two things, I guess, being true to yourself and being passionate, doing what you're passionate about.

and making money off of it are incompatible? Well, not at all. mean, I think obviously I wouldn't be doing this if they were incompatible because I I think that, okay. And I don't know what, like you, what kind of guests you have on as far as like what kind of creative spaces they're in, because to me, there's different- You're the first painter. Well, yeah. Okay. But this is what I'm getting. I think there's a little bit of a difference in-

creative making work that's like deeply personal and resident versus resident, excuse me versus being an Artist like a graphic designer. Do you know what I mean? And not to say that graphic designers can't also do that Do you know what I'm saying? Like for me the skill set of like going and painting a mural is a little different than like sitting in painting and oil painting it's it's just like a different experience so I think like You know when you're offering something to the world that is like your

personal creation that is intimate and important to you, you can't really be thinking while you're creating it about how you're going to sell it. Today's episode of The Profitable Creative is brought to you by Core Group. Are you tired of doing it all yourself? Do you feel like you have no plan? Let Core Group guide you to build the business of your dreams. Core Group, your go-to accountant for creatives.

Fair enough. So like, if I'm sitting there painting oil painting, I can't in my head think to myself, like, are people going to like this? Are people going to buy it? Because, you know, that's not, that's a whole different part of the brain. You know what I mean? So it's like, you have to, when you're to have like true pure creation, you have to be in a little bit of a bubble without having to like have input from those other things. That makes sense.

I think one of the things I don't think this, one of the things that I did talk about in my book, which I'm pretty sure you haven't read yet, have you? I've read parts of it. Okay. Skimmed. Yeah, skimmed. I know how you read. I do have it available on audio. If you would like an audio copy, I'd be happy to give you one. Okay, great. Okay. That it's not so much about losing your creativity to make a profit.

as it is repurposing it. So I think that you can be creative with zero commercial intent, right? But that's what I call a hobby. You're just creating something because you want to create it, whatever it is. And that could be a podcast. could be, it could be a work of art.

It could be a live performance at whatever it is. Like it could be a, you could be a musician and play something or sing something anyway. You do something that is just creative from your passion, from your soul and doesn't have any business intent to it. So what I'm challenging creatives to do is to say, well, it's not selling out to be commercial, right? It's just reframing your creativity to.

a commercial purpose as opposed to just doing it for you. What do you think of that? Okay. I have like a two part response to that. think you can do both. think in my opinion, to have true creativity and something that is truly born of like soul and purpose, you can't be thinking business sense when you're truly creating now.

I do think that creative people can use that skill set and apply it in other ways. That doesn't mean like, you know, I mean, obviously that's like a different thing to me. But I think, you know, and you get a lot of this, like when you watch TV nowadays and like all these TV shows, like we were talking about are so formulaic and someone is like, so the TV nowadays, right? It's like, it's a lot of it is very formulaic. A lot of it is very like, I would just say it like lacks a little bit of soul to it. And that's like the whole thing.

with AI, and we can talk about that in a minute now too. It's like taking that creativity and using it in just a sense of like just replicating, but also like there are creative people involved in those projects, you know what I mean? But that creativity doesn't have a soul to it. Do you know what I'm saying? And so I think when you look at something that's made, you know, that is like genuinely like good and you know, kind of lightning striking, you know, like what's your favorite movie?

The Godfather. right. So like that is like an act of creativity. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like, when you're writing a script for that, you can't be thinking, how am I going to sell this? That may come later in the process. Do you know what I'm saying? And that may come later in the process of like refining things and working with people and you know, making deals obviously. But when you're actually sitting down to write it, that other stuff is just going to block the expression coming through. Sure.

And I'm totally fine with that. Yeah. That tracks and that I think works with what I'm saying. I think it's this false paradigm that a lot of creatives have that it's either or. Like I can either be creative or I can make money. And I don't think that's a true paradigm. I think it's maybe more what you're saying.

the, the, the parent of the real paradigm is that how much of your creativity are you going to use for commercial intent? But I think what you said, what you're saying about hobby, I disagree with because I think you can create, I think the only way to me to have like true art in whatever form you're creating it.

is to create it without thinking about the business intent. afterwards, after you've created, then you can turn your business marketing part of your brain on and then figure out how to sell it. Does that make sense? Well, I mean, I, to use a modern example, I think that's exactly what happened with say Star Wars. And then Disney buys it and it became, became formulaic and it did not stay true to the original

Because this is exactly then those creatives are the creatives on the project are simply thinking from a numbers business standpoint using their creative skills in a business intent and a commercial intent. Do you see what I'm saying? While they're creating. Yeah, we're not creating or just yeah, we're plugging it in and that's where you get into like, know, when people say like AI can replace creative jobs. Yeah, that AI can replace those creative jobs like AI could create a hundred Andy Warhol paintings. Do you know what I mean? Like

AI could take those things and repeat them because they are becoming formulaic. But if you're creating from a sense of like true inspiration and creativity, that's like, that's, would argue a hard skill, you know, and like no one can, no one can really replicate that except for you. Well, I can't personally, but people like you can. I, but you can. Well, you know, I remember back in grade school when I was in this special class, I'll let you decide what kind of special.

And there were these posters up on the board or up on the wall and they were different definitions of creativity and they were actually like defined, like by some psychologists that, know, these are discrete, distinct ways people are creative, right? And the way I am creative.

And so I guess what I'm saying is is that just to say you're creative is is not real Explanatory because that that's nuanced right the way I'm creative is I can see something and Think about alternative ways to do it or use it, right? So I can see something in in one industry and go hmm

I wonder if they tried that in a completely different industry, if it would work. That's the way my brain works. Your creativity and others that I've met where I call it inspirational. don't know if that's the correct psychological term, but like you can come up with something out of whole cloth. Like you don't need necessarily some external stimulus to come up with an idea.

And that to me is fascinating because I don't have that skill. Well, I would once again have to disagree with you because here's disagree with me? Shocking. I think what they say about creative people is that there's like something in their, you know, neuro, I'm not a scientist, okay? Whatever. That takes existing things and creates new connections between existing things. That's what creative people do. And I would argue that's what all creative people do.

I think like that's, I didn't invent painting. Do know what I mean? Like I'm taking a practice that's been done for hundreds of years and just like, you know, attaching a couple new neurons to something that I am familiar with. Do know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's not, and that's exactly what you're doing. You're taking things that exist and you're creating something new from it. Like that's all, like, you know, how many you played the piano. It's like, how many notes are there?

There's only so many notes. You're just making new arrangements of those notes that exist. I agree with that, but there's something about that inception of the inspiration that I feel like I'm lacking. that Eureka kind of what I call true creation. you create something that wasn't there before, not just iterating on something that's already been done. That's what I feel like I do.

I think of Cody Blake as an example of someone who is uber creative and I've sat with him in these strategy sessions where he's come up with things and I'm just looking at him like, where the hell did that come from? how do you come up with that? That doesn't mean it's a good idea, but it's like, I don't even know how that brain works. Like, I don't get it. Well, that's interesting too, because like,

You know, the artist way and Julia Cameron, great book. I don't know if you've read it, but it she talks about how like creation, whatever you believe in, it's like divine. You know what I mean? It's it's coming from something outside of us, some greater force outside of us. And she calls God, you can call whatever you want to call it. You don't mean. But it's like something outside of us, some divinity. And that is what creation is sparked. And I think in that sense, anyone can connect to that. You know,

I don't think it's specific. think some people have more of a tendency for whatever reason to be more open to it. But I think like with practice, I think anyone can connect to that. Well, that's your thought. My thought is that you're just more holy than everybody. You're more connected to the divine. right? No? Okay. Totally. No, not at all. Where do you see yourself in five years?

hopefully alive. Well, that's a pretty low bar, but. your expectations low. You'll never be disappointed. right. I've taught you well. I've taught you all is always to just have space to create. And I think in different times in my life, that's meant different things. But for me, that's like, that's just always what it is, is to have that space and opportunity to be able to keep creating. And if I can do that, then I'm.

Then I'm doing well. love it. How do we find McKinsey Brim, AKA Mac Brim? well you have my social media is my handle is madam Mac A D A E A C K and then, and that's tick tock, Instagram, Twitter, everything. And then, my website is macbrim.com. I love it. Well, thank you, McKinsey. Thanks for having me.

Yes, it was very intriguing. Thank you. Very stimulating conversation. I you hoped it would be.

All right, folks, listeners, if you have any show thoughts, anybody that you'd like for me to interview, please drop those in the comments or shoot us an email. If you like what you listen to, subscribe or like the podcast on your platform. And until later, until next time, ta-ta for now. And that's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers, and don't forget.

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