The Art of Podcasting: Lessons from a Veteran | Cliff Ravenscraft

PROFITABLE TALKS...

In this conversation, Cliff Ravenscraft shares his journey from being a hobbyist podcaster to a successful entrepreneur in the podcasting space. He discusses the challenges he faced in making the decision to leave a secure job in insurance to pursue his passion for podcasting. Cliff highlights the importance of audience engagement, monetization strategies, and the evolution of his business model over the years. He also reflects on the lessons learned from coaching others in podcasting and the common pitfalls that many aspiring podcasters encounter. In this conversation, Cliff Ravenscraft shares his journey from being a podcasting expert to focusing on mindset and personal development. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the foundational steps to success, the role of mindset in entrepreneurship, and the need to address self-limiting beliefs that hinder financial growth. Through personal anecdotes, he illustrates how perceptions of value and pricing can be transformed, ultimately leading to greater success in business and life.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

• Cliff started podcasting in 2005, one of the first 200 podcasters.
• His initial podcast gained over 60,000 listeners quickly.
• The decision to leave a secure job was challenging but necessary.
• Support from his wife was crucial in his decision-making process.
• His business was profitable from the very beginning.
• Cliff's journey began with a minimal investment of $35.
• He became a well-known figure in the podcasting community.
• Many aspiring podcasters fail to continue past their seventh episode.
• Cliff emphasizes the importance of understanding one's purpose in podcasting.
• He transitioned from teaching podcasting to focusing on coaching and consulting. Success is not just about strategy; mindset plays a crucial role.
• Many entrepreneurs skip foundational steps in their journey.
• Creating content is just one part of building a business.
• Mindset shifts are necessary for sustainable success.
• Self-limiting beliefs can prevent financial growth.
• Value is perceived differently by clients; it's not just about time spent.
• Raising prices can lead to increased success and confidence.
• Understanding the source of beliefs can help in overcoming them.
• Creativity is increasingly valuable in today's economy.
• Transforming beliefs about money can lead to significant financial changes.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:16.315)
Welcome to another edition of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Cliff Ravenscraft of cliffravinscraft.com. Cliff, welcome.

Cliff Ravenscraft (00:35.0)
Christian, I am delighted to be here. It was a great honor to connect with you and meet you in person at the Onward Summit in Detroit, Michigan just recently.

Christian Brim (00:44.371)
Yes, it was a fantastic event at which you spoke as well and I very much appreciated your presentation. As a matter of fact, I don't remember if it was you or Xander that I quoted the other day, but I quoted one of the two of you. I don't remember even the quote, but it was impactful. Yes, it was. So I didn't know who you were.

Cliff Ravenscraft (01:02.296)
It was impactful. Got it. Love it.

Christian Brim (01:08.787)
Before I met you, you are a OG in the podcasting space. So for our younger listeners, why don't you give your your bona fides there?

Cliff Ravenscraft (01:23.352)
So bona fides, basically I started podcasting when podcasting was brand new in December, 2005. I was probably one of the first 200 podcasters in the world. And my wife and I started podcasting as a hobby, just for the fun of it, about a television show called lost over the course of some pretty wild circumstances. We ended up with an audience over 60,000 people in a short period of time.

Christian Brim (01:31.25)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (01:36.615)
Wow.

Cliff Ravenscraft (01:54.056)
And we decided to launch several other podcasts as a result of the feedback that we were getting from people who were stating that things that we were sharing authentically and transparently were having a positive impact and influence on their lives. My wife and I have always had a desire and a heart for serving others, specifically from a ministry capacity. But it was clear that this was an opportunity to serve at a level that

Christian Brim (02:14.353)
Mm-hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (02:23.062)
was beyond either of our dreams of the impact that we could have in the world. And so we launched more shows and within a few years we're reaching hundreds of thousands of people. And I one day asked myself the question, I wonder what life would be like if I did this for a living instead of what I was on the path to do, which was to take over a family insurance agency that was started by my grandfather in 1937. And I was next in line to take over for my mom and dad.

Christian Brim (02:52.347)
What was, I mean, you talked about that a little bit in your speech, but that had to be a struggle in your own mind to make that decision to pursue podcasting as a business. What went through your mind in that decision making?

Cliff Ravenscraft (03:14.818)
Well, at first, when the idea, the dream, would life look like if I could do this, it was something that I never really spoke to anybody about because I felt pretty much ashamed of the idea. Here I was thinking about doing a hobby for a living, whereas I had a secure job with incredibly high pay. I'm incredibly skilled at it. I'm the sole income.

Christian Brim (03:25.061)
Mm-hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (03:43.833)
earner for our family. My wife's a stay-at-home mom. We have three young children and this is right around the... we're talking about 2007, early 2007 when I'm thinking and dreaming of leaving the day job. And this is a... I'm 51 now so however old I was 18 years ago, you're the math person so or you're the numbers person. Okay fair enough. So anyway the situation was...

Christian Brim (03:58.675)
And how old are you at this point?

Christian Brim (04:06.203)
Well, early 30s, we'll go there.

Cliff Ravenscraft (04:13.208)
I was in an industry where I'm quite aware of what's going on financially in the world. And I am selling insurance policies to people who quite frankly, there's no way on earth they're ever going to be able to pay that mortgage. There's no way on earth they're going to be able to pay that car loan. so I knew, I mean, people in certain industries knew that the crash was coming in 2008. In fact,

Christian Brim (04:18.705)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (04:37.363)
Hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (04:39.88)
most of the tech side of the world were experiencing significant layoffs. So most of the people I knew that were friends of mine, my peers, they were getting laid off left and right. And here I was with pretty much the best job security one could ever possibly have in an industry that's certainly not going to go anywhere throughout all of this crisis. And yet here I am thinking and dreaming of doing what? My hobby for a living.

Christian Brim (05:02.173)
Right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (05:09.43)
And so yeah, I didn't talk to anybody about it for a long time. However, it was for me, it wasn't just a hobby. It was the fact that this is what I feel most called to do. It was something where I knew that I had impact and influence in the world. And it was beyond what I was able to do in service to others through the work I was doing as an insurance agent, which was actually pretty incredibly high.

Christian Brim (05:38.3)
Right, right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (05:38.674)
So yeah, but yes, to speak to your original question, it was a difficult decision, mainly due to the idea that I felt a little bit ashamed that everybody else is getting laid off. And here I want to voluntarily leave my day job for something I don't know how on earth I'm going to make money.

Christian Brim (05:56.381)
Did your wife look at you crazy?

Cliff Ravenscraft (05:58.774)
No, actually, my wife is the one who suggested I leave the day job. So when I began talking about it out loud, she was one of the first people I talked to. And I began to speak to some other people out loud about this dream. They were like, my gosh, I can't believe. Yeah, of course I see that for you. And here's the things that you could do. I started to talk about it in podcast episodes. I had lots of different shows and I had a lot of personal shows where I could talk about things that I'm thinking about personally.

Christian Brim (06:03.398)
Okay.

Cliff Ravenscraft (06:29.156)
And people who had lived their entire lives as entrepreneurs were reaching out to me and says, you could totally do this. Here are five different things that I think you could do to generate revenue. And every time somebody said something positive to this idea of me leaving the day job, I came home and had those conversations with my wife. And then finally, one day I got so frustrated by my lack of passion for the work that I was doing in insurance because I had been all consumed with the passion.

for what I was doing through podcasting that I just had a string of really bad days of unfulfilling work. And finally, my wife said to me, she goes, that's it, tomorrow you're putting in your 90 day, well, she said you're going tomorrow to have a conversation with your dad, you're letting him know that you're quitting. And I went in the next day and gave a 90 day notice.

Christian Brim (07:21.139)
So your dad looked at you like you were crazy.

Cliff Ravenscraft (07:23.564)
That's what I thought. I was like, it was pretty easy for me to make that decision. Cause I was convinced that my dad being a very intelligent man was going to talk me out of it first thing in the morning. So it is kind of an easy decision to make. And I went in and I said, dad, I need to talk to you. And he's like, yeah, what's going on? And I said, I just want you to know, I I'm putting in my 90 day notice. I want to do podcasting as my career for a living. And he goes, I have been waiting for months.

for you to come in and tell me you're ready to leave.

Christian Brim (07:56.4)
Interesting. So he already knew.

Cliff Ravenscraft (07:58.584)
Yeah, he already knew and he also said these words to me. He says, you know how much money you can make if you stay in insurance, right? And I said, yeah. He says, I'm gonna tell you right now. If you do what you love for a living, you will make exponentially more doing that than you could ever make here.

Christian Brim (08:18.643)
Fascinating. Okay, so I want to I want to fast forward and then come back. So you don't do podcasting now, correct?

Cliff Ravenscraft (08:31.209)
I do podcasting now. Yes.

Christian Brim (08:32.43)
You do? Okay. I misunderstood that. you're still in the podcast game.

Cliff Ravenscraft (08:38.016)
Okay, so let's define what you mean by that and what I mean by that. So if you mean, do I teach people how to podcast? The answer to that question is no, I no longer do that. I still produce anywhere between three to five, sometimes upwards of seven podcast episodes a week, but not necessarily for business income. Maybe one could argue a significant

Christian Brim (08:56.838)
Okay.

Cliff Ravenscraft (09:02.84)
portion of what I do is marketing for my business. So yeah, I'm in the podcasting game.

Christian Brim (09:08.197)
Okay. All right. So let's go back. you, you started this based upon passion, what the impact that you felt that you had and the potential for that, but you weren't sure how to make money at it. And it wasn't like, as mature an industry as it is now where that, that path was, was more defined. So talk about how you worked through that, how to make money doing what you love.

Cliff Ravenscraft (09:36.95)
Yeah. So the first thing that I will say is that when you have a significantly sized audience, sponsors are, and especially when you have an ideal target niche audience, like I did, then big companies are looking to advertise and sponsor said content and to get a message out to your audience. So I had the direct time, direct TV, time Warner cable, Expedia travel.

A bunch of other significant national brands come in and advertise and or sponsor our podcast.

Christian Brim (10:10.717)
So they came to you or did you have to go solicit them? Okay.

Cliff Ravenscraft (10:13.28)
No, they came to us. There were very few podcasters in existence and so they were recognizing that a lot of attention was being put into the listening of podcasts and they wanted those niche audiences. So they came to us.

Christian Brim (10:28.819)
Okay. And so did that make you profitable from the outset?

Cliff Ravenscraft (10:34.434)
Hmm. Well, my business my business has been profitable from day one I and I started the entire business everything that I've built and I've generated many millions of dollars over the last 18 years and it all started with a $35 cash investment so I took $35 out of my own personal bank account and I went to Best Buy and bought a headset You know pair of headphones with a little plastic boom microphone off to the side

Christian Brim (10:46.237)
Mm-hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (11:00.6)
And it wasn't, it was before USB C or USB A. This was one eighth inch microphone jack and one eighth inch headphone jack. And I plugged that into my laptop and I recorded my first podcast episode into a free audacity software. So my business was profitable from day one because so how it started out was I started with free equipment. I had a laptop already $35 headset. And then all of a sudden.

Christian Brim (11:04.463)
Right, right.

Yes.

Cliff Ravenscraft (11:30.408)
Some people said I think you and your podcast your what you and your wife should podcast together I just went ahead and used equipment that I already had around the house I was actually recording on to a sharp mini disc recorder with a Sony microphone in for our first episodes and Then people were listening then they're like hey, I you know have you ever thought about improving your audio quality? and I'm like yeah, that's something that's on my list and

Christian Brim (11:45.235)
Okay.

Cliff Ravenscraft (11:57.154)
we're saving up some additional money to buy some equipment. And one of our listeners said, how much, you know, like, are you, do you have equipment in mind? And I said, yeah. And they said, how much would that be? said, I'm looking right around $350 for the next upgrade. She goes, well, can I get your address? I'll write you a check for that amount so you can go buy the equipment. And I'm like, sure. And that was the first donation that ever came in. And then we ended up having, like I said,

multiple streams of income. there were listener contributions came in from the very earliest days. There were sponsors that in advertisers that wanted to get in front of our audience. Back then there was a big thing where people were trying to build networks of podcasts and they promised to get spat sponsors. And there was this one company that had a live show call in functionality for podcasters.

Christian Brim (12:42.024)
Okay.

Cliff Ravenscraft (12:51.768)
And they were a startup company where they had, you know, those, what do you call those venture capital funds and stuff like that. So they had millions of dollars invested in this company. Well, they didn't have advertisers or sponsors yet, but they said, Cliff and Stephanie, we know that you've got an audience. We want you to do your live shows on our thing. We'll pay you $3,000 a month. And I'm like, okay, $3,000 a month. So I,

Christian Brim (12:59.452)
right?

Right.

Christian Brim (13:14.535)
Okay.

Cliff Ravenscraft (13:19.228)
they started sending me $3,000 a month. And I'm like, okay, I'm doing that. Eventually people, here's where the money really started to roll in. And that was when people said, Cliff, can you teach me how to podcast? And I'm like, sure. And I did it for free. In fact, I was kind of shocked that people would allow me to talk to them for more than 15 or 20 minutes at a time about podcasting.

See, I would go to my local church and Sunday morning, people only want to talk about sports or football or whatever else people talk about. I didn't know what they talk about these days. But I wanted to talk about loss. I wanted to talk about podcasting. I wanted to talk about that. And they're like, I got no interest in that. So people are like, Cliff, can you talk to me about podcasting? I'm like, yeah, I can. And so eventually I talked to enough people and some people said, Cliff, you've got to let me pay you for this. And I'm like, dude.

I feel like I should pay you for the fact that I just got to talk about this for the last hour. This is amazing. Enough people started saying, I had one person say, Cliff, you should try this out. Put a podcast episode out and tell people that you're gonna take 10 people for $97 and you will teach them these things about podcasting. And so I gave it a shot and this is way before Zoom, but I used some sort of

feature functionality like that back in the day and so I had 10 people pay me $97 and one of those people said hey Cliff can I talk to you about your webinar that you did and I said sure he goes I just got back from a conference that is meant to help me market and promote my business and take it to the next level

And quite frankly, when it's all said and done, the amount of money I paid for the ticket and the travel and everything, we're talking about somewhere between five to $7,000 all in. I got more value out of your $97 workshop than I did the entire conference I just went to. You've got to charge more for this. And so I'm like, well, what do you think I should charge? do you, I'm all ears.

Christian Brim (15:22.866)
Wow.

Cliff Ravenscraft (15:34.25)
He says, why don't you do something for nine 97 and see what goes out there. And so I started offering things like that and lo and behold, people started signing up for it. And it was, it was kind of an eye opening thing, but I still struggled with the pricing for a very long period of time. But to get down to it, I was generating somewhere between three to $5,000 a month, every single month consistently.

Christian Brim (15:51.666)
Yeah.

Cliff Ravenscraft (16:03.282)
as a side gig for about a year before I ever decided to quit my day job.

Christian Brim (16:13.393)
Well, yes. So, so what you said you do your podcast now primarily to market your business. Tell us more about that.

Cliff Ravenscraft (16:26.466)
Sure. by the way, the business that eventually took off and...

Cliff Ravenscraft (16:34.74)
So I thought when I left my day job, I would get money just getting behind a microphone and I'd get all these sponsors and advertisers and we'd have this premium listener contribution kind of thing. And those things are still possible today. But it became clear for me at some point down the road, while that was a possibility and it was one that was actually building great momentum, it was every hour devoted to that path.

was an hour that distracted me from the podcast coaching and consulting path. And the podcast coaching consulting path for every hour invested, I'd make three to five times more money. And so I went down the podcast coaching and consulting path so much so that I am personally responsible for more than 40,000 people launching their podcasts. Yeah. So I...

Christian Brim (17:08.221)
Right.

Christian Brim (17:15.421)
Right.

Christian Brim (17:26.535)
Holy cow.

Cliff Ravenscraft (17:30.294)
became known all around the world as the podcast answer man. And I was the go-to person in the world to help you launch a podcast. In fact, most of the people who have a podcast today either learned from me or learned from somebody who learned from me or learned from somebody who learned from somebody who learned from me. So that's where I grew into as the podcast consultant that I was. Today, I don't teach people how to launch a podcast because

Most people fail with their podcasts, at least with what they had hoped to achieve with it. So my promise was I will help you create a podcast. I will teach you everything you know to have a podcast and it will sound amazing compared to all other podcasts. Technically audio quality, it will sound better than anyone else's out there. Now what you do with your podcast,

is all yours afterwards, but I will teach you all of the technical aspects. Most people, and we're talking like 70, 80 % of people, never made it past their seventh episode. They all fizzled out and died. All of those people who paid all of this money, bought all of this equipment, never made it past their seventh episode. And the reason why, that I found, is that a majority of them had either no clue why they wanted to have a podcast and didn't realize how much work

goes into it. Or number two, they knew that they wanted to build a business and leave their soul sucking day job, but they started with creating content. And because that just happened to work out for me. So for me, my story is I started podcasting as a hobby. And then all of a sudden there's this audience and now all of a sudden there's ways to monetize it.

Christian Brim (19:16.989)
Right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (19:22.498)
So I had told that story so many times, not trying to teach people that this is what I would prescribe for you as the how to build an online business. But what I recognize is so many people think that what I did is how you build an online business. But after a decade of teaching people how to podcast, I became very close friends with some of the most successful online entrepreneurs in the world.

Christian Brim (19:40.093)
Right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (19:52.476)
and I studied personal and professional development. And I learned that, a second, what I did was a fluke. It just doesn't work for everyone. And so what I did is I began to become a student of how have these people who are successful in businesses, how did they get started? And what are the common traits? What are the steps that need to be taken to build a successful online business? And what I...

Christian Brim (19:59.891)
Yes, right, right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (20:20.6)
determined is that there are 11 steps in my estimation, what I have reviewed, that if you follow these 11 steps, everyone I know who's gone through these has a successful, sustainable, profitable business. And step number eight is create content. Step number nine is build your audience. And so for me, what happened was people were coming to me and paying me $2,000 to teach them

in their mind how to launch a successful business, but that's not what they were hiring me for. They were hiring me to help them start step number eight, create a podcast, create content. They never did the first seven steps. And so what I recognize is like, okay, yes, I'm making lots of money. And by the way, people, what they do with what they created, I delivered what I promised. There's nobody that was ever unsatisfied with that.

Christian Brim (20:59.763)
Mm-hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (21:20.642)
But what I recognize is that, wait a second, I have an opportunity here to really help people succeed in creating what they want to create in this world, to do the work they feel most called to do in this world, to have a more fulfilling life. And helping them launch a podcast, get really excited and fade out after seven episodes isn't the impact I wanted to have in people's lives. So after a decade of teaching more than 40,000 people how to podcast, I shut all.

of that down and went from being known as podcast answer man to mindset answer man. And so I began to teach people that success in life, business and any other area, it is all about number one, knowing what to do and not number one, but part of it is knowing what to do the strategy that's 20%. But 80 % is mindset. And there are so many things that you're missing.

when it comes to these things. Sure, people can tell you all this, but you've got to get some foundational steps. If you're wanting to leave your day job and that steady paycheck and go out, become full-time self-employed, you need to understand there is a different way of thinking, believing, and feeling to be an entrepreneur. And that switch doesn't happen overnight. You have to know what your beliefs are.

Christian Brim (22:34.898)
Yes.

Cliff Ravenscraft (22:43.885)
You have to change the way you think and feel about money. You have to change the way you think about sales in most cases. So yeah, and you have to have a lot of foundational steps before you ever launch a podcast. And so today my podcasts are me speaking to people who are on the entrepreneurial path. And I'm like sharing with them, if you are not experiencing consistent, sustainable,

revenue and profitability in your business, then you're missing some of these elements. And that's what I'm trying to do is share that. And so my podcast is my place where I encourage, equip, and educate people. And then at the end of each episode, I put calls to actions for various products and services that I create.

Christian Brim (23:33.511)
I love that. think, yeah, I didn't start my business as a side hustle. I just went cold turkey and quit my job, borrowed money to start the business. Not ideal. But I think you raised some very valid points about people

tend to skip steps. Maybe it's because they don't know the steps, but they want to go with the sizzle. want to do the thing that they want to do that gives them that dopamine rush or endorphin rush that, you know, but they haven't laid that foundation, right? I very much

appreciated your presentation on mindset that you did it onward. Because that's I talk a lot about that in the book about the money mindset being intentionally profitable and our belief system around money. What we learned and our family of origin and

growing up that affects how we run a business financially, because you can't really separate yourself from personal and business. you run your personal finances is how you're going to run your business finances. It's the same person, right? I found the story most intriguing about the individual that paid you to consult on their equipment.

and how you struggled to, in your own head, justify sending them an invoice. Can you share that story with us?

Cliff Ravenscraft (25:40.728)
Yeah. So this came not too long after I had a significant breakthrough on my pricing. I had just raised my rates from $150 an hour to $300 an hour. So I had effectively once again, for the second time in my life, doubled my rates as a self-employed individual. And I had a client who purchased a very large amount of podcast equipment to help him launch his podcast.

So much so that my profit just on the equipment order alone was $600. And this gentleman had no technical skill when it came to any of that equipment and had no idea how to hook any of it up and asked me if there's any way that I could help him hook it up. And I said, well, yeah, I can do that. I charge $100 an hour for a minimum of one hour. And with everything that you have to hook it all up,

Christian Brim (26:18.055)
Mm-hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (26:38.616)
it would probably take about two hours. And he says, okay, go ahead and put that on my invoice as well. And so I just recall, you know, again, I had just raised my rates. And so I'm like, wow, I just had a 20 minute conversation with someone. And I just walked away from that conversation with $1,200 profit. All right, the rest was all, you know, equipment that needs to be shipped and all of that other stuff. But as far as my time, I...

Christian Brim (26:48.818)
Right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (27:05.368)
Sure, I just talked to him for 20 minutes. I'm gonna have two hour conversation with him, but I just made $1,200. That is amazing. And I just remember being so excited about that at that time. So the time came along. He got all of his equipment. I walked him through everything and I recorded the, but this is before we had all of the video stuff that we have today, but it was all in audio. I literally, could walk in, I could.

Christian Brim (27:11.613)
Right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (27:31.414)
walk you through this stuff blind. can say, look for this, okay, plug it in. And I have a gift of explaining it in a way that you can understand it. So not only did I help him hook it all up, I taught him how it all works and there's an audio recording so that if, let's just say a bunch of kids came into the room and played with everything and they unplugged everything and turned all of the knobs, if he went back to the beginning of this two hour audio recording, he could actually set it all back up.

from scratch. So I'm thinking I'm super thrilled with what I just delivered. He is super satisfied. And I'm like, wow, I can't believe I just made $1,200. And that's all I had to do. This is unbelievable. Fast forward about three or four months later is I don't know exactly how much but I got a call or got an email from him and says, Hey, Cliff, I'm running into some issue with some static on my

Telephone interface device. I can't hear people and I said well you you remember I warned you before you bought that That there is static on the line that gets no cliff. I remember that night and I've I've dealt dealing with that exactly the way you taught me I'm saying to you cliff the static is so loud. I can't even hear the other person and they can't hear me And I'm like that's interesting. He goes. Well, hey, I'm not upset I just wonder and it can you help me troubleshoot it?

Can I hire you to help me? And I said, well, you know, I'm a minimum of one hour for $300 an hour for a minimum one hour. Because yeah, what's the soonest I can get? And I'm like, my gosh, I'm looking at my calendar. And I was booked two weeks out. Somebody just mentioned me in their podcast. I mean, literally, I have no breathing room. I'm working night and day at this point.

And so he's like, hey, two weeks is no problem at all. I don't have anything scheduled for live call ins until, you know, such and such date. So that's perfect. Cliff, go ahead and put me on your calendar for two weeks from now. And I did. And then all of a sudden I'm like, man, I feel so bad that he has to wait and I, and that he's going to pay $300 from me to troubleshoot something. And as like, all of a sudden it was on in the back of my mind. And so about a day and a half later, I email him and I said, Hey,

Cliff Ravenscraft (29:50.036)
JK Audio is the manufacturer of this device. They have an 800 toll free number and the best technical support. And they will be able to solve this probably even quicker than I can solve it. And they won't charge you anything. He goes, Cliff, I really appreciate you thinking of me. And if it's okay with you, if you're still available in the time that we have scheduled, I'd still prefer to just wait and work with you on it.

Christian Brim (29:59.569)
Right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (30:20.406)
And I'm like, okay, sure. So the time comes for our scheduled call. And I was using a telephone interface system similar to like what we have with Zoom and you can jump on a Zoom call before the call is actually scheduled. And so I'm on for about five minutes early and he jumps on right like instantly afterwards. So five minutes before our call is ready to start. And I said, hey, you know, let's get into this.

jump right in, what's the phone number for your listener hotline or for your whatever? I pick up my phone, I dial it in on my cell phone and I listen and I hear a noise, not static, all right? Static is not the right word. I heard a crossover feedback loop and I sit there, I'm like, I said, do me a favor, reach behind the JK audio, pull out the power cable and plug it back in.

And he's like, okay, done. And I hit redial on my cell phone. Hello. And he's like, my gosh, I hear you. And I'm like, yeah, and I hear you. Problem solved. And I sit there, I said, let me ask you this. When you went out of town, by any chance did your microwave or stove have a flashing clock on it? He goes, yeah, the power must've went out while I was gone. Well, here's what happened. This has happened to me twice over the years. If the power goes out, when the power comes back on and this device is plugged in,

it can send a power surge, which basically there's this fine circuitry in there that creates what's called a circle, a crossover circuit. And it creates a feedback loop between the separation of send audio and receive audio. That's all it was. And anytime that ever happens, just unplug it, plug it back in. Now there's still like three more minutes left in our, or three more minutes before our call is supposed to start. He goes, awesome, Cliff, thank you so much. Send me the invoice. And I,

could not send me an invoice. I said, no, I can't send you the invoice. I said, we still have an hour and three minutes left on our call though. What can I do to serve you? Cliff, I'm great, really. That's all I needed and I'm so thrilled. Thank you so much. Send me the invoice. I said, I could not sleep tonight when I put my head on the pillow if I were to send you the invoice. He goes, why? I said, well, because number one, I should have known.

Cliff Ravenscraft (32:40.408)
you know about that I didn't think that that was the thing when you mentioned static I it's like and this has happened to me twice before you had to wait two weeks but you and of course I'm still feeling a little bit guilty about making $1,200 just a few months ago and all of this stuff so all of those things and then and finally after about three minutes of him begging me right as our call is supposed to start we end the conversation I said listen the only thing I ask is

I'm not gonna charge you anything for this call. The only thing I ask is if anybody ever asked you who do you turn to for anything related to podcast, I'm telling Cliff Ravenscraff. He was man, absolutely, no worries. So I earned $300, but in my mind, I did not earn the 300, so I refused to send the invoice. And what I shared at the talk that you were at is it was my belief system that caused me to refuse to send the invoice.

My belief is that I was being paid for an hour of my time and I did not give him an hour of my time. I solved the problem in 90 seconds. I also had a belief that value is determined by how difficult something is to do. And that was not difficult at all. In fact, the more I also had a belief that the more somebody would hate to do something, but yet they need to do it anyway, the more they should get paid to do it. And I didn't hate what I was doing.

And so there's all of these different things that we're building and stacking on one another that quite frankly made it impossible for me and my values and my beliefs combined to send him an invoice. And that was just one client and I was doing very many of those kind of exchanges over the first year and a half of my business.

Christian Brim (34:33.274)
And so what

what you realized, well, what prompted you to revisit those beliefs?

Cliff Ravenscraft (34:46.464)
gosh, there are so many different things, but I will tell you it was October, 2010. So it was, I started my business in January, 2008. So we're talking, what is that two hours or two years and 10 months into my journey. I had finally started a mastermind group with a friend of mine named Pat Flynn. And the two of us were absolutely head deep into personal and professional development. mean,

There's very few people on this world that actually study all this stuff as much as, as deep as we go. And we were just sharing notes about what we were learning. And it was a conversation about money and pricing. And there was this article titled seven reasons why people want to pay you more. And there's a subtitle called for this article called seven reasons why doubling your rates.

doubles your success. And this is an article by Peter Shallard. By the way, if anybody wants to read it, you can go to mindsetanswerman.com slash double your rates. All one word or all one phrase, all connected. By the way, mindsetanswerman.com is a domain that I own. If you just type in mindsetanswerman.com, that's going to send you to me. But I will say in full credit to Peter Shallard, if you type in mindsetanswerman.com,

slash double your rates, you'll skip me altogether and go straight to Peter Shallard's article. Read that article, you will double your rates right afterwards or some short period of time afterwards. Another thing that changed my, that began to help me evaluate everything was this book right here. It's called Secrets. And by the way, we're recording with video as we're seeing each other. So I know this is an audio podcast.

but Secrets of the Millionaire Mind by T. Harv Ecker. The combination of that article by Peter Schallard and this book, Secrets of the Millionaire Mind, radically altered the way that I view money. And as a result, I began to see, I went from 100,000 a year to 200,000 a year to then 350,000 a year. And I had a year when I made 750,000.

Cliff Ravenscraft (37:08.116)
It's like just the way I thought and felt emotionally about money was completely shifted and all of the blocks that I put up from money flowing to me went away.

Christian Brim (37:15.143)
Yes.

Christian Brim (37:24.123)
Yes. And I don't know if you've used this term, but you know, the phrase I use is self-limiting beliefs. know, what you're telling yourself that you believe to be true, that is not necessarily true. I mean, you make it true because you believe it, but it doesn't have to be that way. I think creative entrepreneurs,

in particular struggle with this because you know, going back to when they were younger, if you're, if you're doing something that's not analytical in school, you're, you know, you're, you're making music or you're, drawing or sculpting or whatever. it's, it's like, well, that's not, that's not a real thing, right? That's just some fun stuff that we do. Right. And

A lot of people in the creative space feel like what they do is not quote real work, right? mean, it's and the reality that I've seen is the creative mind is actually much more valuable than the analytical mind. And in the age of AI, I think it becomes that that gap becomes even more because

AI functions on analytical predictability and creativity is the exact opposite of that. this idea that the amount of effort, know, billing by the hour or the day is just, it's so restrictive. you're leaving so much money on the table by not letting

the to your example, let the person pay you what they perceive the value. Like, you know, that guy begged you to pay you $300 because that's what he felt like he got. Right. That was, mean, you set the expectation of the rate. Yes. But he was happy, happy to pay it. and this, this, this mindset that you get stuck in that, well, what I did, I didn't earn, has to

Christian Brim (39:49.777)
has to go away. It has to go away.

Cliff Ravenscraft (39:53.4)
Yeah, just to, know, my thing today, if I were to approach the same situation with who I am as far as what I believe and how I feel today about money and value and stuff like that, I recognize that he had already determined that yes, I would gladly sacrifice an hour of my day and $300 to have Cliff specifically solve this issue for me.

And knowing what I know today is that if I actually solved it in 90 seconds instead of one hour, that I actually was far more valuable in what I offered than what I actually suggested it might take. So in fact, it might be worth more than the 300. In fact, I don't charge this way. It's like, how much is that gonna be?

Christian Brim (40:36.465)
Yes.

Christian Brim (40:46.3)
Yes.

Cliff Ravenscraft (40:51.032)
Well, it's $300 if it takes up to one hour, but it's $750 if I can solve it in under three minutes.

Christian Brim (40:59.171)
Yes, why because it's more valuable Yes, and and getting through this this With this mindset that someone actually cares how long it takes you to do it, right? They don't they're paying for an outcome whatever that is and If you deliver the outcome at the agreed upon price, then they're happy if you do it quicker, they're happier It's very simple

Cliff Ravenscraft (41:02.046)
Exactly.

Cliff Ravenscraft (41:27.832)
There is room for the argument of quality of the delivered goods, but all things being equal, yes, absolutely hands down that is the case. And quite frankly, many times with time constraint, you can in fact bring forth more creative energy to a project and sometimes stretching it out over a long period of time.

Christian Brim (41:50.791)
Yes.

Cliff Ravenscraft (41:55.094)
the longer it takes to do something doesn't always improve that quality.

Christian Brim (41:59.631)
No, no. My example that I've used many times is if I've got a collapsed sewer line in the backyard, do I care if it's five guys with shovels or one guy on a backhoe? You know, to me, I want it fixed immediately, right? I don't want the sewer backing up into my house. So a guy with five people and shovels, he says that's going to take all day. The guy with the backhoe says I can get it done in an hour.

Exactly. I don't...

Cliff Ravenscraft (42:31.064)
And in many ways you will pay more for the guy with a backhoe because it's like, I know it's gonna cost me an extra $1,500, but this is solved today instead of three or four days from now or whatever. Yeah, I'll pay more to have it now.

Christian Brim (42:35.155)
100 % correct.

Christian Brim (42:47.143)
Yes.

Yes. Cliff, I very much appreciate your time and your experience share. Thank you for joining us. Cliff Ravenscraft.com or the mindset answer man.com. Did I get those correct?

Cliff Ravenscraft (43:08.162)
Take out the the and just put mindsetanswerman.com. In fact, I'd love to give people access to the full opening keynote address called All Beliefs Have Consequences. You got half of that talk at the Onward Summit. And if anyone wants to, you can go to mindsetanswerman.com slash free. And in this one hour talk, you will hear me retell the story that I just told you about the

Christian Brim (43:09.565)
Okay.

Cliff Ravenscraft (43:35.5)
the guy who wanted me to send him the $300 invoice. However, what you didn't get in this conversation and you will get in full is you will learn how number one, to discover what your limiting beliefs are because we all have limiting beliefs. Even today, I still have limiting beliefs. We all have limiting beliefs and we're unaware of about 90 to 95 % of the way that we're thinking and feeling in any given moment in any given day.

Christian Brim (43:50.867)
Mm-hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (44:04.866)
we're completely unconscious of what beliefs are causing us to think and feel how we're thinking and feeling. And so you will discover how to get to the root of what is my limiting belief or what's my system of limiting beliefs in this particular situation. So discover what your limiting beliefs are is number one. Number two,

you'll discover the source of those. And I think it's kind of important to discover where did the belief come from for you to understand that it's not yours, that you adopted it, that you took it in, that you're holding onto that belief. And if you want, you could open your hand and drop it. that's number two, discover the source. Step number three is you will learn how to disassociate, how to actually break up with the belief.

Christian Brim (44:38.715)
Mm. Right.

Cliff Ravenscraft (44:59.86)
and kick it out of your life. And that will never do you any good unless you go to step number four, which is actually conditioning and empowering alternative belief. These four things will absolutely transform every single area of your life, including the profitability of your business. And you can get this talk for free at mindsetanswerman.com slash free.

And by the way, that is session one of eight sessions in my Free the Dream Online course, which is an annual conference I used to do. That course is normally $497. I have a system set up that if you actually get the free access to the first session and you email me, there's something that I ask you to email me. If you email me, I then give you the full course for free.

No strings attached, no expectation, no obligation. You'll ever buy anything from me, but it all starts at mindsetanswerman.com slash free.

Christian Brim (45:57.715)
I love it. So you got the T's here, you got the hook, now you have to go find out how to fix it. I love it. Cliff, thank you again. Listeners, if you like what you've heard with me and Cliff, please subscribe to the podcast, leave a rating, share it with a friend. If you don't like what we've talked about, shoot us a message and I won't have Cliff back on again.

Cliff Ravenscraft (46:04.973)
Hmm.

Cliff Ravenscraft (46:22.776)
Love it.

Christian Brim (46:24.435)
Until then, ta ta for now.