The Evolution of Photography and Technology | Seth Lowe

PROFITABLE TALKS...

In this episode of The Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim interviews Seth Lowe, a Midwest-based commercial photographer, producer, and director. They discuss Seth's journey into entrepreneurship, the evolution of photography with technology, the importance of balancing craft and business mindset, and the challenges faced by creative entrepreneurs. Seth shares insights on identifying strengths, the significance of community, and the value of pricing in business. The conversation emphasizes the importance of problem-solving and self-discovery in achieving long-term success.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

• Seth Lowe is a commercial photographer and director with 10 years of freelance experience.
• He emphasizes the importance of understanding both craft and business in creative entrepreneurship.
• The rise of digital photography has increased the demand for authentic images.
• Seth believes in identifying personal strengths and delegating tasks to others.
• Community support is crucial for creative entrepreneurs facing challenges.
• Self-discovery and overcoming fear are key to personal and business growth.
• Pricing should reflect the value of the work being done.
• Listening to clients can uncover new opportunities for business.
• Seth's podcast, The Solo Creative, focuses on individual operators in the creative industry.
• Connecting with others and sharing experiences is vital for freelancers.

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https://www.coregroupus.com/profit-first-for-creatives

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.357)
Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Orlando, Florida. I don't know why there's only one, Orlando's a big town. In any case, welcome my guest, Seth Lowe. Seth, welcome to the show.

Seth (00:27.104)
Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

Christian Brim (00:29.453)
So tell our listeners who Seth Lowe is and what he does.

Seth (00:35.544)
So I'm a Midwest based commercial photographer, producer, director. wear a lot of hats. I live kind of halfway between Chicago and St. Louis, so close to bigger markets, but in a very small town. I do probably a 50-50 split mix of work between client direct and working with agencies. So a lot of my agency work, I'm being hired as like either a photographer or an occasional in a DP. And then usually my client direct stuff is, you know,

smaller like midsize client is coming to me to help handle like a whole creative problem. So maybe photo and video. So I'm helping them develop an idea and then produce it.

Christian Brim (01:15.203)
Perfect, how long you been doing it?

Seth (01:17.344)
I have been full-time freelancer for 10 years.

Christian Brim (01:21.249)
okay. What did you do before that?

Seth (01:24.786)
you know, tried to freelance. I worked at an Apple store for about a year. I worked at a church for about a year and then, you know, I assisted different people and, know, just working for other photographers and just learning the ropes.

Christian Brim (01:39.929)
So you, mean, essentially you've been an entrepreneur since the start. You didn't really have a full-time gig somewhere else.

Seth (01:47.214)
Yeah, no, mean, I guess my church job would count as like a real job. You know, I was like a salary, but that was it. It was, you know, I think it was maybe 15 or 18 months.

Christian Brim (01:55.981)
Okay, and were you doing videography or photography at the church?

Seth (02:00.75)
Yeah, yeah, that was my I was like, well, I was doing, you know, graphic design, photo, video, the what everything, you know, everything. But I was still freelancing on the side. Then I was freelancing before and I'd been a freelancer for about a year and I was I was like, doing okay, I was making a little money. But it was like, you know, sharing a small apartment with a buddy and barely getting by kind of money. And, you know, I was

Christian Brim (02:06.231)
Right. Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Christian Brim (02:23.257)
Right.

Seth (02:25.538)
dating my now wife at the time. And I was like, all right, if we're going to get married, I got to actually make some money because she's not going to want to be a roommate in this situation.

Christian Brim (02:33.271)
Right. So I mean, it sounds like you knew you wanted to be an entrepreneur from the beginning. I mean, did you know that growing up like

Seth (02:45.585)
I guess I knew I never wanted to have a normal job growing up. My dad was self-employed. owned, he ran a small construction company with just a couple of employees and always was hiring subcontractors, like electricians or plumbers or something, which is kind of similar to what I do now. I hire like a sound guy or an editor or whatever. And so that was kind of the only life I knew. I wouldn't say my dad was like a

Christian Brim (02:49.422)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (03:11.106)
Yeah.

Seth (03:13.654)
I don't want to downplay what he did, but I wouldn't call him, he wasn't like an entrepreneur maybe in the way we often put it in that category. He wasn't trying to be an entrepreneur, he just wanted to work for himself. I think the word has changed, it's become a more popular term since then.

Christian Brim (03:22.574)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (03:26.479)
Yeah, that's interesting. So I mean, in your mind, you said you were a freelancer. You didn't identify as an entrepreneur. Was that intentional?

Seth (03:40.153)
Um, I don't know, I guess maybe it's just like a social media thing. Like the word has just become like a hot word. You know, it wasn't a popular term 15 years ago and I left college, you know, and I think it's, it's, it's a good word because I think you are, it's really important to think of yourself as an entrepreneur. Um, as a freelancer, I guess I went into it. Like this is my craft and I'm going to figure out how to make money out of it.

Christian Brim (03:46.127)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Christian Brim (04:04.12)
Hmm.

Seth (04:05.792)
and I wasn't going into it with a business mindset out of the gate. And that's changed a lot. I wouldn't change that attitude out of the gate because I think it is really important to learn the craft first and then understand the business maybe second to it. But I kind of came into it sort of as the digital camera was really becoming the mainstay and it was like, okay, this is clearly taking over.

Christian Brim (04:19.544)
Right.

Seth (04:30.912)
in the way forward. And I think that with that, the entrepreneur mindset really came with it, you know, that the whole industry changed.

Christian Brim (04:38.863)
Yeah, I actually had a commercial photographer on the show recently that she's my age and took over from her dad when she was like 23, 24, actually was trying to quit because she didn't want to do it. she's...

She's in Indianapolis, large market. Her dad was a larger than life figure. And so it was really hard to follow in her footsteps, his footsteps. But she was talking about the arrival in 2008 of all of the digital phones having cameras and how that had changed things. From her standpoint, what she said that was that

It just meant everybody had phones and there were a lot more pictures, but the skills of photography hadn't changed. Is that been your experience with the change in technology?

Seth (05:46.11)
I don't know. mean, that's like, I guess yes and no. It's kind of a, you can go a lot of ways with that question. I think, I think it's actually been good for photography. I think that my impulse is to be like, this is, this is bad. And,

you know, there's way more photographers and it's easier access. But I think what it's changed is over the course of the past 15 years is a stronger desire for real images that feel real and tell a true story. And sort of the glossy advertising, it still exists and it's still fun to work on that stuff, you know, in some capacity, but that's really died. So I think the ability of everyone to take a pretty decent picture with a phone has just made us more sensitive to what's real. And so then,

Christian Brim (06:18.031)
Yeah.

Seth (06:34.12)
as whether you're a photographer, filmmaker, content creator, whatever you kind of label yourself, the desire for like really content that feels really real has just gotten better. And so you still have to have, you know, skill to tell those stories in a real way. And it's just a new a new kind of goal we're all headed towards, I think.

Christian Brim (06:53.177)
Yeah, back to that idea of entrepreneur and, you know, honing your craft first. I think that's where a lot of creatives start is they have some set of skills and they have a passion for it. And, you know, even the idea that you call it a craft kind of speaks to that because it's not like, you know, a plumber or an electrician probably doesn't refer to their

Skill set as a craft, right? You know, it's That's just not a term they'd use But it is no it it is but I think the you made the point that you adopted this entrepreneurial business mindset after the fact and I think that's a real key for anybody that wants to have long-term success Turning their passion into profit is they have to understand

Seth (07:25.388)
Yeah, it is.

Christian Brim (07:52.175)
that there has to be a business mindset first, not necessarily first when you start, but it has to be your priority above the skill. Because if you just focus on the skill that you have, you kind of put blinders on and you narrow what opportunities you can do. To your point, you said,

you know, like you'll hire a sound editor or, and so rather than you go and learn sound engineering and learn a new skill, you say, well, I, that's not the highest and best use of my time. I'll hire somebody to do it. So, so talk about that journey in your business a little more.

Seth (08:37.23)
Totally.

Seth (08:43.314)
I think, I mean, you kind of just said it. It's, I was pretty like quickly aware of what I was good at and what I was not good at and, finding a balance between, Hey, some of these things I'm good at, I'm going to get better at them. What are things that maybe I'm not great at, but I need to learn the basics set to help me be better at it or help me communicate what I need done to someone else. And then what are things that

Christian Brim (09:06.809)
Yes.

Seth (09:11.532)
this is really frustrating. And if I was I asked myself, like, if I was 100 times better at whatever given thing that I am now, you know, or 10 times better, would I be happy? And if the answer is no, then I'm like, Okay, well, I'm just, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna have someone else do it. Like, I don't know how to do anything in After Effects. Like I hate After Effects. Like I open it, I look at it, I'm like, I don't I don't want to know this. And I just close it. And if I could download the skill, I'm sorry, my

Christian Brim (09:23.203)
Right.

Seth (09:39.862)
turn on do not disturb, I don't know why my phone is still making noise. If I could like download like matrix style the skill to be an After Effects master, I don't think I still would care. you know, I'm just not gonna spend any time doing it. You know, I'm gonna try my best to communicate what I need to an editor, but I'm not gonna touch it. But then something like maybe linear editing or lighting, that's something, man, if I was better at lighting, I'd be really.

I'd feel fulfilled in that, in my ability to craft better images or tell a better story through an edit. And so I will put time into doing that and it will add to my ability, you know, to deliver content.

Christian Brim (10:20.121)
So what is it that you feel like you are most valuable to the business? What is it that you do that no one can do as well as you do?

Seth (10:31.342)
Oh, man. I love these questions. You know, I've thought about that a lot. And I, for me, being myself is really important. And being honest about, hey, I'm good at that. I'm not good at that. Here's where I can, here's where I can help you. And here's where I can't help you. Or here's where I can point you in the right direction. But I'm not going to take on that responsibility, being really, really clear with people and just setting expectations up front. It's been really important for me.

and sometimes it's, I guess an extension of that is saying, Hey, we're going to solve this problem together. And I don't totally know the answer, but I believe we can get there together and let's let's work on that and let's execute this problem really well. And in other situations, a lot of my work is ag work, like so out on farms or big construction and mining sites where there's a lot of things you can't control and can't change. And you have to really be able to adapt in the moment. And

One of my strengths is I can pivot a lot as a project changes and evolves and still marches towards the goal and keep a client, you know, happy as we, as we move down that path, know, understanding, Hey, we can't control this. We can't control that. We can control this. Here's how we're going to adapt and pivot and still achieve your goal dealing with real world problems along the way. that's, that's something I, I'm kind of proud of. And I think I'm good at.

Christian Brim (11:53.295)
You know, absolutely. And I would think honestly, as you were talking, the reason why I would call you an entrepreneur and not just a freelancer or even a business owner is, is this, problem solving aspect of what you do. and I think that's the hallmark of an entrepreneur, is that they see things as they potentially could be as opposed to how they are. And.

you know, it took me a long time to realize that not everyone thinks that way, right? You know, like, but, but if, if you have it, it's, it's in you. Like I'll go into a business, like a restaurant, and I'll be like, I wonder why they do that that way. I wonder, right? Right. Right. But that's all, that's an entrepreneur and you can't

Seth (12:38.702)
I get so mad. I ask all the time. Yeah, I'm like if they did this, it would be way easier.

Christian Brim (12:47.132)
You can't take that out of your personality. It's not a critical thing. It's just seeing the world differently.

Seth (12:54.444)
Yeah. Yep. I had back to your, guess, early entrepreneur moments for me were a friend that we were roommates for a little bit college age and he's entrepreneurial like me and he's, he's a producer and a director, freelancer. And we were really involved in music and played a lot of music together and we had rent to pay and neither of us were like, well, we should get a job. What we did was we just figured, well, maybe if we book shows and sell tickets and get a sponsor.

Christian Brim (12:57.123)
I love that.

Seth (13:24.396)
like local businesses sponsor it, we can pay our rent. And so that was kind of how, you know, like we were always like, yeah, I had a, I had a band for a minute. It's, doesn't need to, conversations can end there. was nothing, nothing notable. It was fun. there's some demos on the internet somewhere. I'll try to find them. Yeah. Some are better than others, but there it exists. But yeah, I mean, you know, we were never like, man, we need, it was always just like, how can we just with what we have make money and you know,

Christian Brim (13:29.433)
So you're saying you had a band?

Christian Brim (13:35.265)
No, no, that sounds awesome. Did you record anything? I can't. You have to send us some that.

Seth (13:53.582)
find someone to sponsor this concert or sell tickets. do we need? You know, we were like always just working on things like that.

Christian Brim (13:59.241)
A little known fact, Jeremy Dorn, who's one of our relationship managers here actually used to be a rock and roll star and recorded an album. I had him on the show and I kind of dug this out of him that, and I've known Jeremy for over 10 years, probably closer to 20. In any case, I didn't know that he had an album.

And so I went out and found it on Spotify and I listened to it and it wasn't half bad.

Seth (14:30.318)
That's awesome. don't know. Mine's probably worse than Half-Bat. One is really fun and good. I wasn't as involved in that one. The roommate was really the songwriter on that one. He's awesome. But yeah, was another... It is. It is. It's 100 % the songwriter.

Christian Brim (14:41.175)
It's all about the songwriter. They don't get enough credit, dude. They really don't. So you, you played guitar.

Seth (14:48.514)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, part of that experience has been, you know, in college, I played a lot of music, which led to photography and I thought a successful career would be, being a tour photographer. And, know, I was into like a lot of indie and punk music and I met this photographer who was touring with like kind of a mid level, indie band. And he was like, yeah, man, I get like 75 bucks a day on tour with this band. If it's like a three month tour. And I was like, really?

Christian Brim (15:00.367)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (15:12.377)
Seth (15:15.31)
That sounds, I was like, I can do that. $75 a day, that sounds, you know, that was like, someone's making money with a camera. That's incredible. You know?

Christian Brim (15:24.971)
Wow. Yeah, I don't think you'd take that gig now. No.

Seth (15:28.622)
No, not now, but at 20, I was like, this guy is living my dream life. You know, this is incredible.

Christian Brim (15:33.239)
Yeah. It's funny how the dream changes for sure. So you also have a podcast. Tell us a little bit about that.

Seth (15:40.31)
Yep. So my podcast is called the solo creative. You know, it's really focused on, you know, people like me, individual operators, how they're running their business, making money, what they're learning along the way. So maybe, you know, some, some similarities to yours. We just, you know, it's kind of just meant to be, Hey, if you've been doing this for a while, what are some hard lessons you've learned? What, how do you stay in the game? How do you encourage yourself? You know, what do you, what do you have planned going forward? What's the industry look like to you? Just.

Pretty conversational.

Christian Brim (16:11.853)
When, why did you start it?

Seth (16:15.374)
You know, I've been doing this for 10 years. started it last year. Um, I just wanted a place to kind of share what I'm learning through conversation with other people. And the podcast podcast seemed like a pretty good format to do that. So it's, it's a little bit on a break right now, but we're coming back this spring with another, I'm going to call them seasons. Now I didn't anticipate doing seasons. We're going to do season 20, 25. So it's going to change. It's going to evolve a little bit. I've got some new ideas for this year.

Christian Brim (16:22.703)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (16:38.915)
I love it. So it it was more of a, it sounds a little bit about like why I started the profitable creative was I was going on shows promoting my book when I published it earlier last year. And, you know, the shows, nothing against the shows, but they weren't having the conversation that I wanted to have. And so, you know, as every good entrepreneur does.

I just started a podcast and it's funny because, you know, after the fact, had some people ask me like, well, what are you trying to do? You know, like, is, is there some kind of intent behind this? And I'm like, I probably should think about that. Like, I, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I started it because I saw a need for the conversation in the marketplace.

But you know, like as far as saying, I want it to drive leads to the business or increase name recognition or anything like that. I didn't really have any intent behind it. and, I think that's the hallmark of a creative entrepreneur is that they, they start something without really understanding what the business goal is. Oftentimes. Have you, have you run into that?

Seth (17:47.384)
Yes, pain.

Seth (18:02.318)
I think that's so true. like the podcast is a good example where I there's no like money incentive or economics behind it. You know, I don't have any sponsors. I'm horrible promoting on social media. Um, you know, like I haven't published an episode in a few months and I'm still paying like all the like hosting fees and everything and all that stuff. And that's, don't care. Um, but there's a lot of people out there like me who just are freelancers and you know, sometimes you have amazing days and sometimes you have bad days and you could have

Christian Brim (18:17.837)
Right, right.

Seth (18:28.896)
a few months where you feel like a millionaire and a few months where you make no money. And just, I wanted to be able to kind of just live in the moment with some people through a conversation wherever they're at in their, you know, season and cycle and business and just have real conversations. And hopefully people can feel like they're a part of that conversation and know they're not alone as a freelancer. Cause a lot of times, you know, that's a, I think a real feeling for a lot of us.

Christian Brim (18:47.001)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (18:50.895)
Yeah, I think that's a real need in the community. entrepreneurs in general, but creative specifically, is the community element. Like there, there, there isn't a place where they can, have their tribe, so to speak. And they speak their language and, and they understand the common problems that happen. But that that's real important because if you know,

One of the most influential things that I ever did was join entrepreneurs organization, which is a global organization of entrepreneurs. And it, one of, one of the things that has been most impactful is the small group forum experience where you meet with the same entrepreneurs in a group of, you know, six, eight, maybe 10, every month and

You know, you, you basically share what's going on. and what, what surprised me so much for the first few years that I was in it, it's like every struggle that I had in business, someone else had raised their hands like, like, yeah, I know exactly what you're, going through and I know exactly how you're feeling. And I'm like, I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one going through this.

Seth (20:15.331)
Yeah, totally.

Yep. mean, like for instance, you know, I remember I went like 2019, for instance, I went like almost five months without work, you know, and I'm, not the only one, you know, but you don't know that you just think you're all alone and everyone else is, you know, posting BTS pics on Instagram or something. And they could be from like two years ago and you know, and you're just feel like an idiot. You're like, what am I doing wrong? You know, so just letting, being honest with that and letting other people be honest, I think is really important.

Christian Brim (20:26.511)
Oof.

Right.

Christian Brim (20:35.521)
Right. Right.

Christian Brim (20:45.561)
So what would you say your biggest business challenge is right now in the business?

Seth (20:53.656)
So actually at the start of this year, I signed up with a business coach to really help me kind of unearth some of those problems. I'm only two weeks into it and it's been really good so far. I think my biggest challenge is honestly probably myself. I get in my own way and I let fear guide decisions sometimes more than I should. Like fear of failure or letting someone down so I don't act because I'm like, well.

Christian Brim (20:57.858)
nice.

Seth (21:21.238)
this could offend someone or if this doesn't go well, it impacts more than just me. So those are things I deal with. For instance, I'm at a spot where could probably hire an editor, like maybe full-time or retainer-based. And that'd probably be good for me because it takes some work off my plate and let me put more energy into growing my business. And it'd be good for someone else because I could give someone else a consistent income. But then I get in my own head and I'm like, man, well, what if

what if 2019 happens and I go five months without work, you know, and then I have to let this person, know, and I just, I, it's not true. Like I can look at, look at the books and look at my math and look at my clients and know that it would work. But, you know, that fear gets in the way sometimes. So I guess myself as my biggest hurdle in a lot of, a lot of situations.

Christian Brim (21:54.51)
Right.

Christian Brim (22:09.423)
you're not alone in that. That's for sure. I, I at the ripe age of 54 have realized that not only am I consistently my biggest problem, uh, I'm, very stubborn about recognizing it. Like even when I, I know that that's my tendency, uh, and have, have repeated that mistake. Uh, it, it frustrates me that it's still, uh,

hard for me to identify and get out of the way. My most recent example is, so I've been handling the marketing for the company since its inception. I've had employees handling part of it for most of that time. And, but I've always sat in that seat of being in charge of it. And, the, the last two years,

I really struggled with it 23, 24. And it, it finally dawned on me, you know, after two years of beating my head against the wall, that I was the problem. And the way it showed up was Delana, Ely, who is my, my, was my marketing director at the time. we were working on, rebranding our service offerings.

And she looked at me finally one day across the desk and she said, you're getting in my way. And I'm like, okay. Okay. And the fact that she had the courage to tell me that and that I had the humility to accept it and not be offended or, or, you know, let my ego get in the way. I stepped aside.

and she absolutely crushed it. And that led me to say, okay, why am I still in this seat? After all these years, why am I still here? And I decided, consulting with my leadership team, to go ahead and promote her into that seat, and now she's on the leadership team. But even then, I'm like, that's a lot of money.

Seth (24:11.586)
Yeah, that's awesome.

Christian Brim (24:34.991)
I'm turning control over, you know what it came down to me for me was look, you haven't figured this problem out yet and you need a different who. There's a great book by Dan Sullivan called Who Not How and basically that's the premise of the book is getting

getting the right who and they can figure out how to solve the problem. But as an entrepreneur, I'm constantly stuck in the trying to figure out the how and instead of getting out of the way and letting someone else that's better suited, better skilled, better experience, you know, whatever to solve the problem.

Seth (25:08.268)
Mm-hmm.

Seth (25:28.184)
Yeah. I think that is probably my, my, thing I've learned the most over the past few years, I've just done a lot of self discovery. Like, you know, what actually makes me tick is, you know, what, where do I find myself worth? Because it has to be more than just photography. If that's all I have, then you know, that could change me gone. I have, I have nothing left, you know, so for me, what I've realized where I'm at my best and where I feel self worth and proud of myself is in solving problems.

Christian Brim (25:55.449)
Yes.

Seth (25:55.606)
And so if I know that like Seth Lowe, like solving problems, suddenly kind of the world is open to me and I can solve problems in a lot of different ways. And I can bring a lot of people in to help me solve those problems. And it's not about me anymore. It's just like, if, if I solve a problem for a client, I feel really good. And I'm proud of what I did, regardless of what the problem was or, how involved in I was. So like, it could be like, Hey, they need some

Christian Brim (26:01.327)
Yes.

Yes.

Seth (26:21.966)
some really awesome photos or a video and I can be directly involved in that and help solve that problem. But it could also be, hey, they need a really good graphic designer or web person. Who do I know? Well, how can I just help connect them and, you know, get a couple people in a conversation with them to help solve their problem? And I don't have to have any part of it beyond that, but I can just be really like I solve their problem and it feels awesome. You know, that's really like I literally I did that with some of other day and they're like,

Do you want to manage this and make a little money on top? And I was like, no, I don't care. Like solve their, like, I just want them to have, you're really good at your job. They need, you know, someone to do it. You make money, they'll be happy that, you know, that's fine. I solved a problem. I'm happy.

Christian Brim (27:01.891)
That's great insight because I think that's true for me too, is that that's where my satisfaction comes, is I solved a problem. Like I had a client that I'd worked with a couple of years ago as a fractional CFO, so it had nothing to do with core. And they were just personal friends and I was trying to help them out. And a couple of years later, last year, they called back and said, you know, we finally decided to do what you said and hire a

somebody in house and I'm like, okay, I can help you with that. And at the end of it, he was just so ecstatic because I found the perfect person for them. And he's like, how much can I pay you? And I'm like, you know, I'll let you decide that because I didn't do this for the money. I did this because you're my friends.

And I saw a need and, you know, that's not the way to run a business, right? I mean, like you can't, you can't run a business going around just solving people's problems without getting paid. but it did, it did highlight what you said, like where my, my worth is like, and that's what gets me excited. mean, like,

That's what makes me happy.

Seth (28:23.992)
Well, I think in both those situations, you and I were both self aware of like, let's say I had managed it and tried to make like 20 % or something on it. Well, in the like strict business sense, I should have done that maybe and try to make money. But the reality is, I know I actually probably wouldn't have been happy managing that project. I didn't want to put the time in to manage it and trying to like, you know, be a middleman and like deal with what this person wants, you know, like

I actually wouldn't have been happy making 20%. So I don't need like the money isn't actually happy. More money isn't more happiness in that situation. It's just helping someone get a job and helping a client have their needs met. And probably the same for you. Maybe doing the extra work.

Christian Brim (28:58.755)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and I'll add to that. One of the things that I've had to learn to do is to say no. because, you know, because you want to help people and you see, a need and you're like, well, I can help them with that. Doesn't necessarily mean you should do it. even if it makes you feel good because

Seth (29:10.412)
Yeah, so powerful.

Christian Brim (29:27.375)
It doesn't necessarily align with what you're trying to accomplish in the business. And that's where I ended up after 20 some years, I had this business that had grown to the capacity of me. Like I was the, I was the limiter on the business and it was all over the place. We were doing so many different things for so many different people. And we, we made the decision to, implement.

EOS, Entrepreneurial Operating System. And we had to make some very difficult decisions about cutting lines of business, firing clients saying like, we're not doing this anymore. And we actually shrunk the business on the top line by about 20%. And that was one of the hardest things I ever did because it felt like a complete failure to go backwards. But it was intentional. It was, it was

to have a firmer foundation to grow beyond where that limit was.

Seth (30:29.474)
Yeah, that kind of goes back almost to where we started, you know, in terms of making money early on and entrepreneur versus like, you know, we're talking about like your craft and the entrepreneur side and developing that, you know, I think early on, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make is take low budget work or discount their service to try to make money. And it's like that fear side of you were like, I've got to make money. I think I know I should charge

Christian Brim (30:49.795)
Yes.

Christian Brim (30:54.66)
Yes.

Seth (30:58.414)
$3,000 for this, but they only have $500, I'll do it. I was really intentional early on about if someone didn't have like a real rate, I wouldn't do the work unless it was like, you know, like I did some nonprofit stuff and some little things here and there. Right. But but generally, I was really it took me a long time to get to actually make money because I wasn't going to do work that I couldn't get the actual value of the work for. And yeah, yeah. I mean, I probably could have been a freelancer.

Christian Brim (31:21.007)
And that's a scary thing to do, to say no, yeah.

Seth (31:26.636)
you know, earlier in my career, like right out of college if I wanted, but I was like, I'm not going to do $300 jobs, $500 jobs. I wanted I'll just I'll pay my dues, I'll assist, I'll grind, I'll shoot test work. I'll work at an Apple store, I'll do whatever. But I want to get paid the right rate to do the work I want to do. Because there's so many problems with doing cheap work. Like, if you do a $300 job, like, that should be $3,000, like, they own you and it's going to be the worst like the cheap, the less money they have, the worse that that person is to work with that, you know,

Christian Brim (31:41.433)
what you're worth.

Christian Brim (31:54.927)
100%.

Seth (31:56.206)
And then like, it's not like you're going to charge more for them next year. You're not the $300 person. You know, it's not like next year for the thing or whatever, you know, the next video, whatever it is, they're going to suddenly be like, okay, now you proved yourself. Now we'll pay you $3,000 or $30,000 or whatever.

Christian Brim (32:07.855)
Right. Well, and there's a couple of things that brings up. One is your price determines your value. If you accepted it $300, then you're only worth $300 and you're worth $300 in their eyes. But if you charge $3,000, then you're worth $3,000.

Seth (32:23.959)
Yeah, totally.

Seth (32:31.884)
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well, it's Yeah, you're like, Hey, no, this is a serious thing. If you're if you believe that if you believe that the thing that you're trying to have me tell a story about or document or whatever it is, your business has value, you should be investing in growing that if it's not if it's not worth anything to you, why should it be worth anything to me my time?

Christian Brim (32:45.775)
100%.

Christian Brim (32:50.263)
Exactly. Exactly. And the other thing I was going to say about that point is I think it ties back into that value question. Like if you're real clear on what your value is, then it's a lot easier in your own mind to justify that price and say no to the other things that don't tie into your value. But I think that's what happens is

Seth (33:14.722)
Yep, totally.

Christian Brim (33:19.893)
entrepreneurs aren't clear on what value they actually bring. And so they end up taking whatever work they can get. And it's hard to get off of that wheel. You have to start with knowing, knowing what your value is.

Seth (33:35.682)
Yep, yeah, totally, that's 100 % true. Which is a hard thing to do as a freelancer, know, in the creative industry. It's really hard to learn that out of the gates.

Christian Brim (33:43.523)
Well, yes, yes. But I think if you, if you are an entrepreneur and your natural inclination is to solve problems, start with that. I had a conversation, with a, a, another creative, a couple of months ago and he was really struggling with this idea of getting out of his skillset and, and into problem solving mode.

And I said, we'll do this. I said, go to five of your clients that you have now, and I want you to ask them what their biggest business problem is, and shut up and just listen. And don't try to solve it. Don't try to see if what you do can fix the problem. Just go ask the question, what are you struggling with?

What are your problems? what happened, and interestingly enough, he never came back. He didn't finish his homework. But the point is, if you approach that and the world that way as an entrepreneur and just ask those questions, what's going on? What are you struggling with? Without any necessarily intent of it helping you,

You're going to find all kinds of opportunities. Now you may not want to do them. You may not be able to do them, but you're going to. You're going to find plenty of opportunities.

Seth (35:17.9)
Yeah, absolutely. And at least at a minimum, you know, you're going to be the guy that's like listening and being a part of the solution and connecting them with the right, you know, the right answer.

Christian Brim (35:27.171)
Well, Seth, how do we find out more about you, about your business and about your podcast?

Seth (35:34.52)
So you can check out my website, guess, SethFlowPhoto.com if you want to see some of my work and my social links are on there. I'm pretty bad at posting to Instagram and doing that kind of stuff. And you can search the podcast. It's called The Solo Creative. It's on Spotify and Apple podcasts and all the other things. definitely.

shoot me a DM, email, text, you can grab my number from my site, whatever. I love connecting with people and just talking about life, the industry, whatever's going on. So happy to answer any questions or just connect with new people.

Christian Brim (36:05.295)
Perfect. And thank you very much for your time today and for your candor and your experience here. I appreciate it. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message and tell us what you'd like to hear and I'll replace Seth. But I'm not gonna replace me. So until then, ta ta for now.