Building Podmatch: A Solution for Podcasters | Alex Sanfilippo

PROFITABLE TALKS

In this episode, Christian Brim interviews Alex Sanfilippo, the founder of Podmatch, who shares his journey from a corporate job to entrepreneurship. Alex discusses the challenges he faced in the corporate world, the inspiration behind Podmatch, and the importance of courage in overcoming fear. He also delves into the SaaS business model and how he achieved profitability within three months of launching Podmatch. In this conversation, Christian Brim and Alex Sanfilippo explore the challenges and rewards of entrepreneurship, particularly in the creative and podcasting spaces. They discuss the emotional impact of criticism, the dynamics of working with family, and the strategic shift in focusing on hosts rather than guests in podcasting. Alex shares valuable advice for aspiring podcasters, emphasizing the importance of keeping it a hobby and understanding the value of a niche audience.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS

• Alex Sanfilippo transitioned from a corporate job to entrepreneurship due to a culture shift.
• He started Podmatch to solve the problem of connecting podcast hosts and guests.
• Courage is essential for creatives to overcome fear and take action.
• Alex achieved profitability within three months of launching Podmatch.
• The podcasting industry has a significant imbalance between guests and hosts.
• Alex's journey involved numerous side hustles before finding success with Podmatch.
• He emphasizes the importance of community in building a business.
• The initial investment for Podmatch was only $5,000, showcasing the potential for low-cost startups.
• Alex's experience highlights the value of taking risks and embracing uncertainty in entrepreneurship.
• The conversation underscores the significance of creativity and resilience in pursuing one's passion. Every entrepreneur goes through moments of self-doubt.
• Courage is doing the right thing despite fear.
• You must be willing to suffer for your passion.
• Working with family can be rewarding but challenging.
• Focusing on hosts can lead to better retention in podcasting.
• Podcasting should be a hobby before a business.
• Podcast listeners are often more engaged than social media users.
• Articulating your message improves with practice.
• Niche audiences can be more valuable than large ones.
• The perception of having a podcast boosts authority.

Ready to turn your PASSION into PROFIT?!? Let's get CREATIVE ➡️
https://www.coregroupus.com/profit-first-for-creatives

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.207)
Welcome to another episode of the profitable creative, the only place on the inner webs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. Shout out to our one listener in Show Low, Arizona. No idea where that is, but it's a great name. Joining me today is Alex Sanfilippo with Podmatch. Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Sanfilippo (00:25.646)
Christian, thank you so much for having me. As a listener of your show, I'm actually really excited to be on this side of the microphone. It's a gift.

Christian Brim (00:30.771)
you, well, you're welcome, but you may, you may regret that. So, pod matches is, seems like a fascinating story from the outside. I'm curious what the story is from the inside. How did pod match come into being?

Alex Sanfilippo (00:35.16)
Hahaha!

Alex Sanfilippo (00:47.022)
Yeah, and I'll go back a little bit of ways as I know there's some story to be told on this podcast, which is one of the things I actually really like about it. It started as me wanting to get out of corporate, I think. And I think that that's not an uncommon story, right? I think it's very common that people say it started as that. I actually loved my corporate job, but it hit a point where it was a privately owned company that then went public. And when it went public, I found that my...

Christian Brim (00:59.01)
Mmm.

No, no.

Christian Brim (01:10.7)
Okay.

Alex Sanfilippo (01:16.076)
I don't even really know how to say it in like a nice way, but my ability to perform well was diminishing. Like I was really good when I could be what is now a coined term, entrepreneur. So an entrepreneur working inside an organization. So it was a small company. get, were agile. We could do things quick and kind of make fast adjustments, try things, break things and come back. But as soon as we went public, there was actually one, one thing that happened that, that made me realize it was time to move on. And I'll quickly share that, but I'll never forget it. I, one of the, at this point I was actually C-suite.

Christian Brim (01:21.059)
Okay.

Christian Brim (01:24.953)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Sanfilippo (01:45.902)
in the company and was overseeing five divisions of the company. It was a big multi-billion dollar organization. I'm very thankful to have been part of it. And one of our divisions saved a cut cost by like a full 10%, which was like unheard of, like it was huge. And so I walked down to my CEO's office, who I reported directly to, to tell him the good news. was trying to make myself look pretty good. And so I sit down and I was like, I was like, hey, Paul, did you see the numbers for this department? And he just goes, yeah, I saw them.

It was the way that he said it that I was like, yeah, exactly. And at first I thought maybe like, maybe he didn't understand. So I kind of leaned in, I'm like, hey, so you saw we saved that 10%. Like it wasn't extra cost. And he just goes in a very kind of annoyed way. And I could tell it wasn't at me. It was just with the system itself. He goes, yeah, I know, I know. He goes, but we didn't tell shareholders, we didn't tell the board that we were going to do something that big. And he goes, just don't do that again, without us talking about it. We have to really plan stuff like that. And I really

Christian Brim (02:18.829)
not the reaction you were expecting.

Alex Sanfilippo (02:46.2)
Christian, expected a pat on the back. I want to be real. instead I walked out of that office, his office and was walking down the hallway to mine, which really wasn't far from his, but it was the first time in my career that I felt like it was actually a long walk. And during that time, I just kind of was like, you know what, as much as I've enjoyed this, I think I've overstayed my welcome, right? Like, and that's the only term I could come up with. I just felt like, man, maybe it's, maybe it's time for something else. no, the age thing. How old was I? I think I was.

Christian Brim (03:05.689)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (03:10.913)
How old were you at the time?

Alex Sanfilippo (03:16.408)
I was probably 30, maybe 31. I was very young to be in the position I was in. I did work very hard in that corporate job, but I was very young to be where I was, and I will openly admit that.

Christian Brim (03:17.773)
Okay.

Christian Brim (03:25.507)
Yes. So I mean, it sounds like it was, it was a culture shift, you know, that really drove you out. And, I think, you know, I've never worked in really large organizations. The largest I worked for, you know, Deloitte was, you know, is, the largest accounting firm now. It wasn't at the time, but I, I totally understand that.

The culture is different. I'll tell you why I think it's different. I think it's different because they are primarily reactive and your story is is exactly echoing that sentiment. Would you agree that the the culture in those organizations as much as you you've experienced it is reactive.

Alex Sanfilippo (04:17.07)
Yeah, I really do. For lack of better term, I'll just say like the staff, and I don't mean this to be mean, we turn into like a cog in the system more or less. We're keeping the thing rolling. And here's the thing, like the whole organization worked hard to get to that point. So I kind of understand it. I just think for creatives especially, that is not an environment that we thrive in.

Christian Brim (04:33.369)
No. So you're sitting there. You've had the long walk. Did you did you say I've got to move now? Or was that something that took time to kind of percolate?

Alex Sanfilippo (04:45.55)
I I said I need to move now, but my actions didn't necessarily align with that. First off as a creative, don't sit in an action. This is just like a little side note here. It's better just to take action if you don't know what's gonna happen. It took me too long to leave. I believe that was year 13, my career I didn't leave till year 15, maybe it year 12. I think it was actually year 12. didn't leave for, and yeah, and you know what, actually real quick, I didn't wanna call it an episode of your show that I really enjoyed. It came out on January 9th, January 9th, 2025 and it's with someone, her name's Sunny.

Christian Brim (05:02.419)
wow.

Alex Sanfilippo (05:14.926)
and was overcoming fear and entrepreneurship. It's a great story of resilience, of breaking through, of not letting fear hold you back. Everything I needed was in that conversation, Christian. So I encourage anyone hearing this and you feel like maybe you're like me and you're like, man, I feel like Alex who was stuck in that job for three years long already and want to, please go listen to that episode, pause this one and then come back. But that is a real gift of an episode. So I just want to shout that out because what I realized, Christian, is I was just, I was scared. I mean, you grow to a level of comfort, like the perks, the benefits that come with it.

Christian Brim (05:15.405)
Yes. Yes.

Christian Brim (05:23.417)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (05:40.643)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (05:44.397)
Yeah, yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo (05:45.068)
I was terrified. I'll be real. That's what it comes down to.

Christian Brim (05:47.937)
Yeah, and at that age, did you did you have children? Did you have a family at that point? OK. OK.

Alex Sanfilippo (05:55.263)
Just a wife no kids at that point and still no kids today, but maybe later I'm still terrified of that, but that's probably I'm probably on the wrong podcast for that one, right?

Christian Brim (06:04.803)
Well.

What comes to my mind is I was like, well, go take action. And I'm like, that's so. So, you know, no, because I kind of I started my business at the ripe age of 26. And I had fear, of course, but the I had some intuition, some prescience, even at that age that like.

Alex Sanfilippo (06:10.702)
Alright?

Christian Brim (06:33.721)
that fear was not going to go away, that it was only going to get worse or harder to overcome as my situation changed. at that point, I did have two children, but like as I as I grew in in my career and my responsibilities, it was going to be harder for me to make that choice. And, you know, I try to put myself back into that mindset of like, what were you thinking to

quit your job, buy a franchise with borrowed money and you know with two kids at home and two kids and a wife at home like what were you thinking and like I wasn't clearly but you know fear is fear is just it's it's in you it really doesn't matter your external circumstances I talk a lot about

you know stress being relative so like it doesn't really matter it might not be stressful to someone else but it doesn't matter it's stressful to you so okay how did you decide to start pod match

Alex Sanfilippo (07:39.47)
Yeah. So what I started doing at that company that led to potmatch is I started a bunch of little side hustles. So just things I do in the evening. I mean, I tried everything from like web design to consulting in the space and really all fell flat. And so I realized, I'm like, uh-oh, maybe I'm not good at this entrepreneurship thing. Maybe I'm not as creative as I thought. And those were kind of the things that were going into my head. So when I finally decided to do, and maybe some of you were like, that's brilliant when I say it, but maybe it was just, I don't know what to call it, but maybe it was just me being like very

I felt like I needed something. So I started a podcast to talk to people who had successfully left a nine to five job to become full-time entrepreneurs. Really, I did it. I had the listener in mind, but I was very curious myself because I wanted to do that. And so I was just chatting with people on how they actually made that happen. And it ended up being a really good show. And two things happened. One, I learned how to actually leave a corporation, like the risk that was involved and the way to kind of mitigate some of it.

But more importantly than that, I think as I learned, I wanted to be in podcasting. And so from there, I really just kind of followed the entrepreneurial framework that made sense to me. And I'm going to way simplify what a bunch of people told me. But basically what it came down to was just four steps. Number one, find an area of passion for me that become podcasting. Step two is to get into the community, be part of it. So I started going to all the podcasting conferences, speaking at a mall, and then find a simple problem that those people are dealing with.

And then four, offer the fastest possible solution. And I'll never forget it. It happened when I was on stage at PodFest in Orlando, Florida. It's still a conference happens today. I was on stage in 2020, right before the world shut down. There's about 2000 people in the room. And right when I got off stage, I just had pen and paper. asked every single one of them. They would talk to me. people were nice. So just come up talk to you, right? So I just come down asking like, Hey, what are you struggling with in podcasting? Cause I wanted to solve that problem. And I heard a lot of things that day, but 100 people told me, Hey, the amount of time it takes to

Christian Brim (09:11.83)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (09:23.064)
Right?

Alex Sanfilippo (09:32.494)
book a guest or to get us together is really difficult. It's hard to find that next ideal person. And I heard that a hundred times. And ultimately that's what led me to create Podmatch, which simply put is a tool that connects podcasts, guests and hosts for interviews and handles all the administration processes in between that. And for lack of better term, I always say it works kind of like a dating app. I've never used one, I've been married too long to do that, but I always say it works probably pretty similar to that. But instead of catering for dates, it's catering for podcast interviews. And that's really how the whole thing

Christian Brim (09:56.28)
Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo (10:00.984)
came to life and ultimately caused me to leave my corporate job.

Christian Brim (10:04.611)
So you started pod match in 2020.

Alex Sanfilippo (10:07.0)
Correct, yep, June 15th, 2020 was the early launch date.

Christian Brim (10:10.723)
So you're coming up on your five year anniversary, congratulations. So you knew all about coding, so you knew how to write the application, right?

Alex Sanfilippo (10:13.388)
Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it.

Alex Sanfilippo (10:22.126)
of course. No, absolutely not. I couldn't imagine again, listen, the profitable creative. I don't know if I was, I don't know if this is where the tech guy belongs, right over here. So I actually, I made a phone call when I had the idea, I whiteboarded out and it was actually March 10th, 2020 is when I really had it all mapped out. And I made a phone call to an old friend, somebody I'd known for a long time. He was in my wedding about 10 years before that time or something like that. And I was in

his wedding anyway, we had known each other for long time and we'd always talked about doing some sort of project together. We just didn't know what that actually looked like. I think we were just kind of wishful thinking. Well, I called him, I pitched the idea to him and I didn't know this, but two days before that, he had just completed a multi-year contract he'd been working on. So he was like, hey man, I actually have capacity. He goes, and I don't know anything about podcasting, but this sounds like really cool. And so we immediately, I just called up someone who had.

I guess been like a family lawyer and I was like, Hey, can you just draft up 50, 50 paperwork so we can just start cleaning? And we hit the ground running literally that next day. So March 11th, 2020, we started, I just showed him pictures of him. Like, could this be built basically?

Christian Brim (11:28.919)
Right, right. So there's so many questions I want to ask you. So, so essentially you're a software company, right? And it sounds like you're working off of this, there is a paid version. Well, I guess it's all paid, right? I mean, okay. So, but there is a network effect to it. Like the more people that get on it, the faster it grows because they're feeding off each other.

But is, is, do you find five years into it that you, you, you serve or, or, or your users tend to lean towards guests or hosts or neither is it fairly split.

Alex Sanfilippo (12:14.53)
Yeah, it's fairly split but by design. And I won't say that doesn't take work. More naturally, more guests show up than hosts. And just for everyone listening this, if you're like wondering how the podcasting industry works from that perspective, right now at time recording this, there's a 44 to one ratio. 44 people trying to be guests on podcasts with one per podcast is looking for guests. And it makes sense if you think about it. well, maybe as a listener, might not know this, but Christian's job today is much more difficult than mine.

He's thinking about you and me at the same time, and then he has work to do after I leave, and I don't, right? So it's a lot more work, so it's very easy to get into podcasting as a guest, not trying to say you shouldn't, but it's much easier, and that's why we kind of see us out of balance. But with our software, we've worked very hard to always be pursuing more podcast hosts, and we finally guess I sort of just based off the numbers takes care of itself really well.

Christian Brim (12:44.984)
Right.

Right, right.

Christian Brim (13:06.615)
Yeah, because I would assume a lot of those guests are not seriously committed to the extent that they want to pay for a service to be on shows would kind of be my guess. Is that right?

Alex Sanfilippo (13:21.102)
Yes, correct. And that's most common email we get as a team is from someone wanting to be a guest on podcast, making it very, very clear to us they would never pay to be on platform and it should always be free for them to get on every show. they're like, by the way, by the way, do know Joe Rogan? I'd like to be on his show. you know, that's our most common thing. I'm like, okay, so wait, hold on. You want me to introduce you to my uncle Joe? He's not my uncle, right? I don't know him either. And you also just want everything to be free for you. And to me that...

Christian Brim (13:39.033)
Ha!

Alex Sanfilippo (13:51.018)
We did that on purpose. We used to have a free tier, but I found that the guests showing up, and I'm not trying to say that there's not a space for this, and there's alternatives to pod match that people can find that are totally free, so I encourage people to go look at that, but we found that people who were signing up were serious. They really saw value in their message so much so that they said, this small amount of monthly subscription fee is nothing because my message is worthwhile. It's typically people that didn't want to show up very serious. That's what we saw when we had that free tier.

Christian Brim (14:06.743)
Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo (14:18.936)
people would show up and they'd kind of disrespect the host. They'd make it seem like it was an honor for the host to get to talk to them. And really that's just one, should never be that way. But I think that that's actually backwards if I had to pick a side.

Christian Brim (14:31.865)
Of of course you would and I appreciate it. starting a, so I'm gonna ask a few questions that you're perfectly acceptable if you don't wanna answer them. so you had a partner that could do the coding so you didn't have to invest in coding which is expensive. So that kind of, I'm gonna pause. Yes or no, yes? Okay. Okay.

Alex Sanfilippo (14:58.798)
That's correct. Yeah, we're completely bootstrapped. We made initial investment of $5,000 total, each putting in half and then we've never looked back since then.

Christian Brim (15:07.715)
How hard was it for you? mean, and SAS is, again, probably not a business model that most of our audience is familiar with. it's very expensive up front. Cost of client acquisition, there's a cost. But cost of servicing the client, once they're on board, your profitability is usually pretty strong. But then you run into, well,

they want new features and there's these things that you can't just create it and be done with it. So how long did it take you to get to the point of profitability?

Alex Sanfilippo (15:48.846)
Yeah, real quick. You mentioned SaaS and so software as a service in case we haven't mentioned that because I'll be real when we first launched, someone's like, Oh, so you have a SaaS product. And I was literally like, what? I like, I went my phone like I had it like under the table. I'm like, Oh, software as a service. Yes, that is what we have. And so I was I would listen I came from big corporate I came from the aerospace industry. When someone told me he have a SaaS product. I was like, What is this person trying to say I'm sassy? Like, what is it they're getting at here? Right?

Christian Brim (15:52.963)
Thank you.

Christian Brim (15:59.193)
Sure.

Christian Brim (16:05.389)
Yes, yes.

Christian Brim (16:15.233)
Yes, yes.

Alex Sanfilippo (16:17.358)
Yeah, so, and a lot of people might not have that, but I do want to give one little caveat to keeping the costs low. And this is actually what we did. We started with a no code solution for the first version, the alpha of pod match. We specifically use bubble. I think it's bubble.io is the website. Okay. Yeah. And so for a lot of creatives, gives you a very, like, it's just the world we live in now. You can get a very, or I should say much more affordable introduction to creating some sort of software product and allowing your creativity to flow through it.

Christian Brim (16:25.559)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christian Brim (16:31.415)
Yeah, I've used Bubble. It's good product.

Alex Sanfilippo (16:45.624)
for again, a much lower rate and just to see if it's worth spinning up. Now, since then we've completely moved to a custom blend and all that. But back to your question, I just wanna kind of give that caveat, because I think people might actually be interested in that sometimes and find some creatives starting to move toward that. We were actually profitable by month three, very little profit, I wanna acknowledge. But the reason for that is because again, like going back to the kind of framework I shared, the area of passion, but the second part is being in the community.

Christian Brim (16:57.677)
Yes.

Christian Brim (17:04.513)
That's fine.

Alex Sanfilippo (17:13.07)
When I was writing down that information, were telling me when they said, Hey, when I said, Hey, what are you struggling with? I was writing down their name and email address as well. And so I emailed those hundred people the day we launched and said, Hey, you said your problem was this. Does this solve it? And so I just sent it out to them and listen, the timing was everything too. We launched it in summer of 2020. And so we launched it. Those people all shared it and we had a, very thankful. Like I had no social presence, but we had two different billionaires. Reshare it.

and say, I'm joining this platform. If you want to talk to me for free, this is how you can do it. And so overnight we really blew up. I can't take credit for that. The timing, the idea, yes, that stuff worked, but I didn't know that that was going to happen. so yeah, by month three, we were profitable, very little profit, but it was enough for my co-founder who was used to making a lot more money than I ever made. He was a database builder for the DoD working on nuclear, specifically on nuclear projects. I don't know what price tag that had on it, but I imagine it was...

substantial and super dorky, but he immediately was like, I'm leaving my job. This has legs, I'm going with it. It took me a little bit longer than him. I was so scared, going back to that fear thing that held me back a lot. This was that showing up once again, but for month three, we really started turning a bit of a profit.

Christian Brim (18:13.121)
Yes.

Christian Brim (18:20.344)
Right.

Christian Brim (18:28.053)
Are you still afraid? Or if at five years, do you feel like you can let your let your breath out?

Alex Sanfilippo (18:37.686)
Yeah. it's a good question. You know, I left my corporate job, December 7th, 2020. And I'll tell you what, that was a bittersweet day, but leading up to it, what I realized I was missing once again was, was actually courage in my life. I was kind of run by fear in many ways without even even being like conscious. It was very subconscious. I questioned my creativity, not because of my own creativity, because I was worried what other people would think. That's another form of fear it was for me. And so, and I questioned.

Christian Brim (18:52.185)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (19:00.217)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Sanfilippo (19:07.298)
profitability, mean, everything in the title of your podcast, the profitable creative. was fear written, like riddled by all those things. But I'll tell you what, when I learned this idea of courage and I realized it was the thing I was missing, I held on this quote, which is, courage is being afraid than doing what you have to do anyway. And when I learned that, man, I walked into my, my, my CEO's office leaving on very good terms, by the way, my last year, that corporate job was actually potentially my best year I ever had there. worked really hard and I wanted to make sure I ended that season right. So could start the next one on the right foot.

Christian Brim (19:22.263)
Yes. Yes.

Alex Sanfilippo (19:37.326)
And I put in my notice and it was a 90 day notice because I was it's public company and I was was higher up in it. So I agreed to 90 days. But when I left that day, December 7th, I actually believe I left all fear in that office with me and walked out the door. And I'm not like a really like emotional. I shouldn't say I'm not. I think I'm emotionally stable. But I don't really cry a lot like that doesn't like that's not a natural thing for me just to be like, Oh, it's beautiful. Right. But I actually I boohoo cried on my way out the door. Just me.

Christian Brim (20:00.013)
Right.

Alex Sanfilippo (20:06.86)
by myself, sitting in my car, but it's because I felt a weight lifted of being free from something I knew it was time to leave years before I left. But also I think it was the weight of fear that I was holding onto that I left there. I'm not going to say I'm fearless or I don't calculate things, right? Like I'm a creative, but I also love spreadsheets and love to make sure we're making right decisions. But it hasn't held me back since then. I actually truly believe I've been freed from that. And it was that whole idea of understanding it takes courage to make it as a creative and to make it as an entrepreneur.

Christian Brim (20:36.117)
It does. And I think back, if you haven't listened to the episode with my daughter in it, I recommend it because I find her entertaining. But, but you know, she decided at a college to be a figurative oil painter and went out on her own. And that was not what she went to school for and moved to Dallas, then moved to Hollywood. And you know,

the gumption that she showed in doing that, but more than just doing it, but saying, I'm not going to let somebody else dictate to me what I think is good. You know, I mean, and not to say that she didn't have, she have reaction to it. She had a TikTok go viral early on and she paints some things that can be a little bit controversial.

And she got a lot of good feedback and a lot of bad feedback. And as her father, I'm telling her, like, look, you're either going to live or die by it. Like, if you want people's adoration, you got to take their criticism. Or you can just ignore it and do what you do. And that's what she's done. I mean, she's...

I don't think she was following my advice. think I was just reassuring her that she doesn't have to listen to that. She knows what is true in her heart to be what she's creating and she does it.

Alex Sanfilippo (22:16.398)
Can I ask a, is there for me to ask a question? I don't know. Okay. I'm just making sure real quick. You can't call an episode like that and not give a reference. So it's October 22nd, 2024. It's how the connection between creativity and divinity. And that's Mackenzie Brim. Please go check that out because I have not listened to that one yet, but I will be right after this. That's my next stop. So thank you for that. Yeah. You called it out. I'm like, people are going to wonder where to go. We got to give it to them.

Christian Brim (22:18.963)
Absolutely.

Christian Brim (22:36.461)
Well, thank you. Thank you for cleaning out my lack of production. OK, so yeah. I thought that was the question. Go ahead. Sorry.

Alex Sanfilippo (22:45.838)
Well, real quick, my question there, if it's okay. no, no, I wanted to highlight that real quick. But my question is you told her that she doesn't have to necessarily take it all in, right? What people were saying when it's criticism and stuff. Myself as an entrepreneur, as a creative, and I know that people are listening to this as well, what we produce, what we create, that's like, that's our baby for lack of better term. And when someone tells you you have an ugly baby, how does that, even if you don't agree with it, how?

Christian Brim (23:09.4)
Yes.

Alex Sanfilippo (23:16.247)
How do you process that? Like, and obviously your daughter had some people hating on what she was doing. How did you help her understand how not to process that in like a way that hurts your creativity? And I'm just curious from your own experience, and that's probably, that's a big question, but I wonder if you have any thoughts on it.

Christian Brim (23:31.363)
Yeah, no, but it's a good, it is a good question. I, I think, I think every entrepreneur, not just creatives, but every entrepreneur, goes through, you know, am I crazy moment? and, and the, the second guessings and that's absolutely normal. I think that what sets entrepreneurs apart is that

They have the ability to see things as they could be. And they're willing to sacrifice to make it happen. I had Todd Henry on the show, and the accidental creative author, he's written several books. he was talking about

Just what you were talking about of like. Courage. Is is not a lack of fear. It's doing the right thing anyway, and. He also quoted in that book that. The Greek word for passion. I don't remember how to pronounce it pericolos or something like that, but it but it actually means suffering.

in a literal translation. And you know, you have to be able or willing to suffer for your passion. And I think that's the distinction is that, you know, it's not that those words don't hurt, but they're not as important as what you see.

Alex Sanfilippo (25:20.492)
Wow, man, I have never heard that before. You have to be willing to suffer for your passion. Man, that's good, thank you. I was taking notes here, that helps me a lot. That's really great.

Christian Brim (25:27.383)
Well, know, as a Christian, I'd grown up hearing, you know, I didn't grow up Catholic, but I'd heard the Passion of the Christ. And then, of course, I saw the movie, but I didn't ever understand that. I always thought that an odd word, right? But then when I understood the literal Greek interpretation, I'm like, OK, that totally makes sense.

Alex Sanfilippo (25:53.518)
That's exactly, so I'm a follower of Jesus myself and that's literally like the exact example I thought of. like, I actually get that now. It's so funny that you just said that. Like for the first time that just hit, I'm like, wait a minute. That's what that means. Wow.

Christian Brim (25:59.843)
Right.

Christian Brim (26:05.111)
Yeah, yeah, yes. So you work with your wife. Yes, let's talk about that. Because that didn't work out for me. I mean, I'm still married, but my wife doesn't work here anymore.

Alex Sanfilippo (26:10.51)
I do. Yeah. Yep.

Alex Sanfilippo (26:17.478)
Thanks for that disclaimer. think that's a good one for everyone to know. Yeah, so my wife had just sold a business at the end of 2019 and she decided she wanted to take a break. She owned a boutique. had brick and mortar and also online and listen, by the grace of God, she sold it at the end of 2019. She wasn't gonna hold onto another year, but someone was like, hey, we would like to buy out before Christmas. And I was like, I can have a wife on Christmas? Like I will take it, right?

Christian Brim (26:19.127)
Yes. Yes.

Alex Sanfilippo (26:44.13)
retail, you got to work. And so, so was really happy with that. So she was kind of like, both agree, excuse me, that she would take, we both agreed that she would take, three months off before she'd get into anything or four, maybe it was four months. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was choosing to take a little bit of time off because it was a lot to build that and stuff like that. And, so she just started doing like a little things to help me with the podcast I was running at that time. And we were getting ready for Orlando, that big talks that she was kind of helping with that. And then she saw me doing this pod match thing and she,

Christian Brim (26:44.408)
Yeah, yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo (27:13.858)
very quickly reminded me that I'm a creative and some of the administrative stuff, like getting dates right, doesn't always work for me very well. And she's like, hey, can I jump in and help with this? And I was like, yeah, that'd actually be great. And so kind of naturally, she just kindly pushed me in the right direction and pulled all the things that were not working for me there. Basically the way I put it is she's now, she's a partner of the company, so there's three partners now. It's me, Alicia and Jesse. Jesse's our technical co-founder, Alicia being my wife. And she's like the engine that keeps it running. She handles all the support.

Christian Brim (27:20.269)
Yes.

Christian Brim (27:29.133)
Yes.

Christian Brim (27:43.193)
Yes.

Alex Sanfilippo (27:44.05)
all the administrative stuff, all the standard operating procedures, the documentation, and she's just really good at it. Super high capacity. so yeah, we do work together and that's kind of her role and my role is more this, I suppose.

Christian Brim (27:57.793)
Yes, she's very attentive, by the way. I mean, very quick to respond and always super helpful. she does her work. She does her role well. Absolutely.

Alex Sanfilippo (28:05.954)
She loves to hear that stuff. I'll definitely pass that along to her. I don't think she gets enough encouragement, which is probably a flaw in my part, but I will pass this along today.

Christian Brim (28:14.529)
You're welcome. So what you I'm going to go back because that's what my brain does. It bounces around. You said that you focus your efforts marketing efforts in obtaining host. Did I hear that correctly? So tell me why why you came to that decision and then how you do that.

Alex Sanfilippo (28:31.736)
Yep, that's correct.

Alex Sanfilippo (28:40.334)
Yeah, so I actually originally was kind of prioritizing guests because I knew some hosts, right? When we launched, I had that list of 100 people that all host. So I was going after guests, but I quickly realized that there's a really high churn rate in podcasting. People who start podcasts do not stick with them. As a matter of fact, the data at time recording shows that you have just over a 45 % chance of making it to eight episodes and then pass that. So more than 50 % of people don't even make it to eight. And then if you look at a hundred, it's...

Christian Brim (28:54.413)
Hmm.

Alex Sanfilippo (29:08.526)
it just gets less and less and less. And so when we started getting a lot of guests onboarding, let's say if you've got 10, 20, 30 year experience doing something, you don't wake up one day and be like, forget all this. I'm going to do something else, right? Like, no, that's your experience. You stick with it. So we found that guests were, mean, like they were retaining extremely well. They were never leaving. And some of them, they weren't trying to get on podcasts every day. And I think I actually agree with that. It's better to have a cadence. Many of them were once a month. Some people were even once a quarter. They wouldn't be on four per year. They just want to be the right ones.

Christian Brim (29:21.176)
Right.

Christian Brim (29:35.597)
Right, right.

Alex Sanfilippo (29:37.56)
but they were staying. was the point, but hosts were leaving. And I actually told my co-founder, Jesse, I'm like, dude, we must be doing something wrong. These people are leaving. So I just started, we offered an off boarding call. People could delete their account and immediately say, Hey, could you book 10 minutes? may just want to hear why. And thankfully a lot of people booked. And of course there was some of the standard ones you think you were like, your product sucks, right? You're the worst. Those were there. But the mass majority of people were saying, Hey, I'm not just leaving this. I'm actually shutting down my podcast completely. And that's when I realized I'm like, man, that's

Christian Brim (29:56.929)
Right, right.

Alex Sanfilippo (30:07.202)
we have to focus on finding them because they're not going to hang around. And now some do, of course, some people make the test of time, which I love seeing, because they're typically the really good shows. But I made the decision at that point to kind of flip it over to that. then we just internally, we said, hey, if this is like a dating app or like a wine night at a restaurant, a ladies night, then host of the ladies and guests of the guys. If you bring host, then guests will show up. You bring ladies, guys will show up. That's just the nature of how it works.

Christian Brim (30:33.731)
That's a great analogy.

Alex Sanfilippo (30:35.768)
Thank you, I appreciate it. came up with it and Alicia and Jesse said that they're like, that's such a dumb way to look at it. I'm like, but it's right and you know it. Thank you, Christian. I'm again, I'm sending this along to my team when this is out. So we just decided to make that focus and kind of how we started doing that is going back to events like PodFest, which is a big conference in Orlando. Podcast Movement is another one that one kind of travels around, sponsoring a bunch of virtual events and me going on podcasts, especially with ones that have creatives like this listening.

Christian Brim (30:41.187)
No, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. Yes.

Christian Brim (30:54.243)
Yes?

Alex Sanfilippo (31:05.422)
Many people who listen are probably considering starting a podcast or perhaps they're already in the works, already have one. And so this is kind of our way to connect. So it's always been very organic for me. Some people call that like the hustle. This is just what I love to do. The hustle to me is having to figure out advertising and stuff like that. So we just don't do any of that right now. And the growth has been very healthy. It's not so fast that we can't maintain good quality in the community side. It's not so slow that we're necessarily worried about anything. And so the fact is that this works right now. So for the time

Christian Brim (31:30.233)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Sanfilippo (31:34.018)
Bing, this is sort of our ongoing strategy that we have is just to get in front of them and really do our best to serve the host very well.

Christian Brim (31:40.749)
Well, I think you do a very good job of it. I don't have anything to compare it to because I started a podcast on a whim, which is maybe what a lot of people do and why there are a lot of churn or people don't realize how much work's involved. So they get frustrated with it. And, you know, I guess results, it's kind of like anything else in life. You can have the best product, best service in the world.

But if no one knows about it, it doesn't matter. And getting that critical mass to make money off a podcast is not easy. I I'm fortunately sitting here not relying on the podcast to earn a living because I wouldn't even be eating beans. I'd be eating dirt. So what do you...

people that are new into podcasting, what are your recommendations to them? You know, your top two or three, assuming that they've already made the decision to go into it. Like what's your advice to them?

Alex Sanfilippo (32:52.846)
Yeah, the first one would be to keep it a hobby as long as you possibly can. Listen, the notion of making money, that's great. But I always tell people like start a business instead of starting a podcast if that's the goal. Like this is a creative outlet that can definitely support a business. It can support a brand in many ways. But I find the people that do it the best, they're excited about it. They like it. They don't have to have it tied to a dollar. So they're not always thinking about the business side of it. They're thinking about the creative side of it. And with podcast listeners, people...

Christian Brim (32:56.601)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (33:13.826)
Right.

Alex Sanfilippo (33:22.254)
podcast listeners are smart. mean, if you look at some of the data on them, they're some of the smartest people on the planet. They can, they want to grow their creativity. They want ideas. They don't, they can kind of feel if it's like sleazy in a way to kind of funnel you into something, right? And so the purity of podcasting I think happens when you can keep it a hobby. And so the second thing I mentioned is just the benefit around doing that, which is for me, like I was really not well spoken when I got into this. Like I, I wasn't used to talking in front of people really. And

Christian Brim (33:29.475)
Yes.

Alex Sanfilippo (33:51.15)
I would ramble too long, maybe still do a little bit. working on that. But in general, I've become a much better speaker. And it doesn't scare me when I go to a conference and they're trying to capture testimonials and if anyone's been to a conference that happened, a camera ends up right in front of you. Hey, tell us what you love about this. People are like, um, and I can just go into this mode of like, I know how to share this. I know, I know what I'm doing here and you can kind of grab it. I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything like that, or say that I'm, I'm an incredible speaker, but the reality is after you get reps,

Christian Brim (34:04.791)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (34:09.102)
Right.

Alex Sanfilippo (34:17.37)
you learn how to speak really well, but also you learn yourself really well. And so for me, it's that own self discovery. I think you and I both have met a lot of people like this, because most people are, they don't really know how to articulate where they've been and where they're going necessarily. Like that's very hard for them to kind of share their own story without having people prompting it. But after you kind of get honed in, you learn how to share things in a way that others understand, including your business. And the best example I can give of that, and this will, and I'll move on to my last point here, but

Christian Brim (34:36.697)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (34:42.169)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Sanfilippo (34:45.898)
is the first time I went to a networking event and I had pod match. There was probably a hundred people there and I met them over the course of a few hours. The first person took me out five minutes to explain what pod match was. I just kept on talking, talking. The next person about four minutes, the next person about three, then two, then one. My point is by the end of the night though, I learned to articulate it and get no questions within 15 to 20 seconds. And you're like, wow, I know exactly what that is. And that sounds really cool. And you get that by the reps. And so I think for a lot of us as creatives,

Christian Brim (35:00.665)
Because you were getting tired.

Christian Brim (35:09.475)
Yes.

Yes.

Alex Sanfilippo (35:15.958)
it's hard for us to explain what's going on our head. Podcasting on either side of the microphone helps you be able to articulate that really well and get the feedbacks. know how people, how they're like relating to that. And if it's really making them understand in a big way. So again, keeping it a hobby, benefits of it speaking. And the third thing is just the awareness of what you do. I find that if you have a podcast, you're automatically held to or thought to be on a different standard. It's an authority booster.

people looking like, wow, you have a podcast? Like, okay, that's pretty cool, right? And so it holds this level of prestige or this like, wow, this person has like a podcast. Like they're the real deal, they're not messing around. And from that alone, like totally worth it. I know like a book, a lot of people say like a book can do that as well, but for me a podcast does that. Anytime I go somewhere networking, I'm like, first and foremost, I'm a podcast and also a software founder. And people are never like, ooh, talking about the software, like you have a podcast? Every time, right? They're like, well, what is it?

My podcast is about podcasting, so it's always a weird conversation, Christian. But nonetheless, I find that those three things kind of paired together are some of the beauty of what a podcast can provide a creative.

Christian Brim (36:23.841)
Yeah, I, there was, there was two things. Let's see if I can remember them that were salient, that I was going to follow up with.

Alex Sanfilippo (36:31.382)
Like I said, I should learn to speak in smaller sound bites. I'm a work in progress.

Christian Brim (36:34.243)
don't know, you're fine. just, you know, I just, my brain wanders. So the first thing I was gonna say is just the, description of the network dating there is really illustrative of the problem of a creative and a visionary. I thought for a long time that

I communicated well until I went through an exercise called the vivid vision. It was created by Cameron Harold. He was one of the original founders of one 800 got junk and he, he did it as a template and there's really not a template, but it's, it's speaking, it's speaking about

the business in three years in the present or past tense. And what was interesting about it is, is I was writing out our first Vivid Vision. I realized that I didn't have clarity on some of those things. Like I just had a vague idea of what the vision was for myself. And then I realized, well, if I'm not real clear on it, how can anybody else be clear on it? Right? So that was...

It just, it, I think creatives and the rest of the world, there is a communication gap, but it can be bridged and, and, it does take effort because it's not natural because people don't think like we do. And it's, it's, it's hard to get that across a lot of times. the second thing I was going to say was, the, the podcast notoriety. That's funny because I have a long-term friend of mine.

that I saw her the other day and my wife, she had pulled my wife aside and said, does Christian still work with core? I see all of this podcast stuff on his social. I'm like, and I'm like, that's really weird. She thought like I had sold my business or something like that. Yeah. Cause I have a second podcast that I do that's that's on entrepreneurial mental health and mindset. So weird.

Alex Sanfilippo (39:01.634)
But it's, it's, it's got that, it's got that thing about it, right? Where people are like, this has to be all you're doing. I mean, I'll never forget this. When I was transitioning my podcast from being that one learning to become an entrepreneur, right? I shared it earlier. It was called creating a brand. was like the art of creating a brand, how to build one for yourself. and then I moved that to podcasting made simple because my audience changed right now. I serve podcasts, guests and hosts. it's, it's about either side of the microphone, leveling up your craft. But during that transition, I posted a picture that said like,

Christian Brim (39:03.693)
Yeah. Right.

Christian Brim (39:14.946)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (39:21.614)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Sanfilippo (39:29.134)
Farewell, creating a brand on it. It's just like something I wrote on a piece of paper and posted it. And I even said like, I'm moving from this podcast to another. And people were like, man, like how, like, are you gonna be able to make it without that podcast? like, from the financial aspect, I'm like, you know, I never made a dollar from it, right? Like what people thought that that was like the thing that was bringing me like revenue, but it's just the, it's the persona of it. And so I hear you, people are like, wow, how can he stop that? That's like a huge production he's got going there. People don't know it was me.

Christian Brim (39:50.338)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (39:55.651)
I'll see if I can squeeze you in. So, okay, I know on Pod Match you guys help people monetize their podcasts, but I think that the threshold is 1,000 downloads a month. Does that sound right? No, I'm thinking of Buzzsprout. I'm sorry.

Alex Sanfilippo (39:59.127)
Right?

Alex Sanfilippo (40:12.502)
Not on PodMatch, no, we help people monetize. Yeah, sorry, Buzzsprout, you're correct. Yes, that is correct with them.

Christian Brim (40:19.545)
Okay, if that's a threshold to get paid, what is the average podcast download a month? I can tell you, is 100. Now, that's not a lot, and that's doing two episodes a week, but it's growing. mean, know, that's the thing, but I'm just curious what the averages are, if you know.

Alex Sanfilippo (40:48.556)
Yeah, I do know. And real quick, I always compare podcast listeners to people sitting in seats with the host and the guest on stage. Because that's the best comparison we have. And social media, I'm not dogging it or saying it's bad, but it's different. That's where people go to kill time, right? Podcasts are typically where people go to learn, to level up, to be inspired, to laugh. They want something from it. So I always tell podcasters, think about yourself on a stage. To me, a room with 100 people in it with me on stage, I'll show up there every week. Right? No problem. But I pulled up the...

Christian Brim (40:54.051)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Christian Brim (41:16.461)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Sanfilippo (41:18.188)
the current averages and in case anyone's like, I'd like to see this and it does change every month, but not by much. If you go to podmatch.com slash report, we update these numbers here. So right now you're in the top 50 percentile of all podcasts. So top half, if you have 28 people listening in the first seven days of a new episode being released. And then if you have a hundred, let's just say this is your number, Christian, but if you have 109 people listening in the first seven days of an episode being released, then you're in the top 25 percentile.

Christian Brim (41:36.215)
Okay.

Alex Sanfilippo (41:48.374)
And so here's the thing podcasts, again, they aren't big, but we have to have the right mindset. It's people's lives. It's like them sitting in seats because if you get up to the top, 5%, it goes over a thousand people listening the first seven days. But I I'll be real. Like I've only spoken in front of a crowd of a thousand or more, a few times in my life. Like that doesn't happen very often. So like, yeah, to us, it's been preconditioned by social media thinking they're the same thing. They're not, they're very different in the value of a small niche focused podcast. Listenership is a beautiful thing.

Christian Brim (41:55.064)
Yes.

Christian Brim (42:17.997)
Yeah, I had no expectation when I started. I had zero business intent. just didn't like nothing against the shows that I was on when I was promoting my book, but I just didn't hear the conversation that I wanted to have. And so that's why I started it with no other expectation. But I think to your point, I don't know that I would want, maybe I would, a thousand per episode, but

It's not about the numbers. It's, the quality of the content and the community that we're creating. mean, cause that's that I, I, my intent in this show is to help people navigate that business side of, a creative business better to learn from the experience of others that they might not be able to, overcome or, you know, avoid the landmine.

And as long as we're doing that, then I'm sitting here.

Alex Sanfilippo (43:19.47)
that's such an, you just brought up such a key point, I think, when it comes to podcasting. I'll an example of another friend of mine. She has a logistics podcast and she's real, like logistics management and she, come on, right? I'm like, come on, who doesn't? She says to you about, I think every month she's got 300 people who listen. And a lot of people will be like, oh, that's kind of small, but they're all Fortune 500 C-suite people that are listening. And so it's like, can't, also you can't compare people's audiences, right?

Christian Brim (43:30.755)
Who doesn't want to listen about that? mean, yeah.

Christian Brim (43:39.043)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (43:43.081)
Yeah, yes.

No. No.

Alex Sanfilippo (43:48.332)
You can't. so for her, does she want 10,000 random people? No, nothing against if someone has like a lifestyle podcast and just like random people to listen, but like which for her business in her life, that way she can really help people is more beneficial. It's that couple hundred people that are listening every month that are real movers and shakers. And what she does for work is she consults with those businesses and you best believe they're the ones getting the phone, trying to call her. She does not want more people listen to her podcast. She has all the business she can handle.

Christian Brim (44:01.58)
Exactly.

Christian Brim (44:15.501)
No, right.

Alex Sanfilippo (44:16.98)
And she wants to keep a good reputation and do a good job by those people that she's serving. And I think that that's a perfect example also that you just shared about the same type of thing.

Christian Brim (44:24.611)
Yes. Well, Alex, I feel like we could probably talk for another 45 minutes, but I'm going to wrap up. How should people find out more information about pod match if they want to?

Alex Sanfilippo (44:37.294)
Yeah, Christian, thank you for the opportunity. If you just go to podmatch.com slash free, that'll give you five quick wins. can read in less than five minutes, whether you're a guest, a host, aspiring guest, aspiring host, it's podmatch.com slash free. And I don't want your email address or anything like that. It's literally just a way that you can kind of get an introduction to see if, if podcasting is right for you and you just on the mic or how to level up or if maybe podmatch somebody can use. And again, that's just podmatch.com slash free. But Christian, I really respect what you're doing here again, as a listener. It's truly an honor to be here with you today.

Christian Brim (45:06.617)
Well, it's an honor for me that you're you're a listener. So I'm we're mutually honored and we'll have those links in the show notes for everybody listeners. If you like what you've heard, please like the podcast, rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, you can drop us a note and I'll get rid of Alex until then. Ta ta for now.