Navigating the Event Industry Post-COVID | Phil Mershon

PROFITABLE TALKS

In this episode, Christian Brim interviews Phil Mershon, a multifaceted entrepreneur, musician, and author. They discuss Phil's journey into entrepreneurship, the challenges of balancing multiple roles, and the evolving landscape of the event industry post-COVID. Phil shares insights on defining ideal clients, the importance of creativity in business, and the intersection of passion, purpose, and profit. The conversation also touches on the significance of team dynamics and the need for processes to support creativity.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS

• Phil Mershon is a polymath with diverse interests and experiences.
• The entrepreneurial spirit can be inherited and nurtured.
• Balancing a day job with entrepreneurship can be challenging.
• Defining an ideal client is crucial for business success.
• The event industry has shifted focus post-COVID, emphasizing connection and experience.
• Events can serve as marketing tools or profit centers, depending on the goals.
• Writing a book can be part of the entrepreneurial journey.
• Creativity and focus are often at odds for entrepreneurs.
• Finding the right team dynamics is essential for success.
• Understanding the intersection of passion, purpose, and profit is key to sustainable business.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:00.191)
minutes 30 45 whatever I mean depends on how interesting the guest is right

Phil Mershon (00:06.062)
right, five minutes then.

Christian Brim (00:07.489)
Welcome to another episode of the profitable creative the only show on the internet where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit I'm your host Christian Brim special shout out to our one listener in Show low, Arizona Arizona is a huge state. I don't know where Show Low is but it's a fascinating name I'd love to learn more my guest today joining me is full Phil Mershon author

entrepreneur, saxophonist, polymath, evidently. Phil, welcome to the show.

Phil Mershon (00:45.909)
It's pleasure to be here.

Christian Brim (00:48.341)
So for the listeners, tell us who Phil is and what Phil does.

Phil Mershon (00:54.254)
Polymath is a great description. I've got a lot of different interests. I am a musician. I grew up playing clarinet and sax. I've actually been a professional musician for, gosh, don't know, 15, 20 years. I was a worship pastor for a number of years. I've cut four degrees, which is kind of ridiculous. But from economics to music to counseling to divinity, I've been working with a

Christian Brim (01:09.281)
Thanks.

Christian Brim (01:15.937)
You

Phil Mershon (01:22.36)
company called social media examiner for the last 15 years, pretty much from the beginning and helping to run a conference called social media marketing world. You said I wrote a book. So first time author working on a second book or barely started, but I I've got the idea for it. And then started my own company a few years ago, but really started investing in it last year called unforgettable events, which is an event strategy company. And I know I've worked with you and

others on events that people are producing.

Christian Brim (01:54.678)
Yes, you have. I do have the benefit of having met with you a couple of times and I did leave off some of those things that I already knew about you, so I apologize for that. So I guess my first question is what led you to start a business?

Phil Mershon (02:14.76)
gosh, a few different things. My dad started five different businesses. And so I think the entrepreneurial streak has been in me my whole life. Even when I worked for a large corporation, I found myself wanting to do start things there, sometimes getting squashed, but they encouraged that. And I've, I've been drawn toward companies over my career that allow for entrepreneurial spirit within the company.

Christian Brim (02:32.981)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (02:42.261)
Yes. Yes.

Phil Mershon (02:43.534)
But what I was finding is, you know, the company I'm in now, I could see the path that they were on and that some of my entrepreneurial ideas weren't going to fit. You know, they don't want to become an event company. They, they run an event, but they don't want to be an event company. So I felt like I needed an outlet and I was given permission to do it. And so started dabbling, but really was given permission wide open last year to start running for it.

Christian Brim (02:55.104)
Right.

Phil Mershon (03:12.012)
But I think that's it. The entrepreneurial spirit wanting to make a mark, wanting to make a difference. so yeah.

Christian Brim (03:18.817)
So how have you kind of juggled the, do you juggle? don't, okay. How do you juggle those two, like running a company and then still having, I assume a full-time gig. do you manage that?

Phil Mershon (03:24.398)
Not very well.

Phil Mershon (03:41.016)
Sometimes not very well. Like I'm, behind on a number of things because of trips that I've taken to speak at events and consult with companies. like managing that time balance, you know, is, sometimes challenging and project management tools definitely help. particularly on the, you know, the day gig, I'll call it social media examiner. they keep things organized and let me know where the priorities are.

Christian Brim (03:42.529)
Mm.

Christian Brim (03:48.577)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (04:00.799)
Right?

Phil Mershon (04:10.634)
Sometimes I don't do as well with the entrepreneurial business. I tend to end up working in the business sometimes instead of working on the business. And that gets me in trouble when I was like, okay, I've made it through all the things that were on the books. And literally right now there's nothing on the books. well, there, yeah, there's actually something on the books, but it's not defined, but it's so that's like the challenge there. It's

Christian Brim (04:36.001)
Do you see a path forward where you stop your day gig and just do unforgettable events full time?

Phil Mershon (04:46.606)
I think the potential is there a hundred percent. It's, that's a question. It's a good question. I think where I'd love to be is a place where social media examiner is a client as opposed to, you know, a job, which isn't a huge difference, but I think it's a mindset difference. it does have some legal, you know, implications of, where benefits come from and things like that.

Christian Brim (04:48.799)
Yeah. Is that what you want?

Christian Brim (05:00.865)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (05:04.448)
Yeah.

Phil Mershon (05:15.926)
So, but you know, being able to have a few significant clients and then being able to take the small gigs and the speaking gigs along the way, I think is where I'd like to be. And, you know, maybe even getting to a place where there's multiple employees. I have a desire to create frameworks that I can teach others where people can do what I do. so that's in my mind for down the road. And, but right now just getting to a place where.

It is a full palette is first school.

Christian Brim (05:46.826)
Right. Yeah. So that's not, I don't think an uncommon story where people start their, their business as a side hustle and then move to a point of either making a choice or having a choice forced on them to, to pick a path. I I've yet to interview somebody that didn't pick the path of entrepreneurship. so we'll keep our fingers crossed for you.

Tell me who your ideal client is for unforgettable events. Like, who are you trying to work with?

Phil Mershon (06:24.994)
There's a couple different types of clients, really two. And this is what I say from my podcast, which I forgot to say I'm a podcaster. so two different ones. One is somebody who's starting a new event. They may have already done events before, or it may be their first event, but the startup phase is where I'm really good with the creative and helping to define a lot of what goes into that.

Christian Brim (06:33.237)
Of you are.

Christian Brim (06:39.265)
Okay.

Phil Mershon (06:50.412)
The other is someone who is trying to make significant change. They recognize something's broken or something is just not where it needs to be. For example, I've got a client who I've worked with where their net promoter score NPS is significantly below where they want it to be. And they've recognized what the key drivers of that were or are. so helping them address those key drivers to hopefully become like the industry standard.

So, that those are two examples of the kinds of people that I work with. that second one probably is going to be larger companies, to be honest, larger events, as opposed to small events. a third service I provided though is, secret shopping, like going to an event and giving feedback on what I see in the event of opportunities for improvement.

Christian Brim (07:46.562)
Okay, has just some filling out the map here for my purposes and maybe the audience would be interested. Has the event industry recovered from COVID entirely or not?

Phil Mershon (08:07.822)
I think it's recovered in a way, but it's had a new focus. There are the people that are trying to go back to what we used to do, but I don't think we can. think, I think today people recognize more than ever. There are things that you can do like we're doing right now. Um, or in a virtual environment that in some ways are better done in a virtual environment. Like, you know, if you can do a meeting and you don't have to travel and it's only an hour, why are you spending another hour?

traveling, if it could have been done like this, the technology is good enough that allows for that. There's certain things that you can go search the internet and find someone who's already talked about it in a podcast or on a video or, or you could pay for access to a course. I think what the events industry is grappling with is what are the things we can only do when we're together versus what are the things that are best done in a virtual environment? But I think what's recovered.

Christian Brim (09:00.65)
Yeah.

Phil Mershon (09:06.798)
is the desire to be together. And initially in 21 and 22, when events started to emerge again, the desire to be together was so strong, you know, that people were flocking to events that is stopped. That's not happening in the same way. Now people are calculating more which event we've got a lot of options. Which ones am I going to go to? And are they creating?

Christian Brim (09:09.013)
Yes.

Christian Brim (09:17.984)
Yes.

Phil Mershon (09:33.442)
the kind of experience where I can not only get good content, but I want the conversations and I want the connections. That's really what's driving people to go to events now. Whereas pre-pandemic, we didn't have that same criteria. People didn't all know what you can do on a Zoom or some webinar platform. A lot of people weren't forced into the digital events.

Christian Brim (09:58.762)
Right. Well, that's one of the pieces that I loved about your book, Unforgettable, was the idea of community and connectivity. Because those things are markedly different in person than they are virtually. And I think about my own experience, there's a certain level of focus.

when you commit to travel and be out of office at an event for a period of time that you lose in virtual. Like, you know, in a virtual environment is extremely easy to get distracted and start losing the effectiveness of whatever it is. I'm just curious. So like in general,

You know, you've got your huge events that are obviously profitable, but are most events a cost center or do they make money?

Phil Mershon (11:12.748)
So there's different types of events. Some events aren't trying to make a profit. It's a marketing tool. they're trying to, whether it's branding or they're trying to sign up customers or they're selling a program, there's a lot of events that that is the goal. And they're willing to spend a certain amount of money because they know it's attracting potential new clients.

Christian Brim (11:15.51)
Right?

Christian Brim (11:20.159)
Okay.

Phil Mershon (11:38.048)
Other events are seeking to make a profit. That's like their bread and butter. That's how the company is living. And, you know, obviously event companies, that's what they do. They wanted to run it in such a way that they make a good profit. whereas, you know, someone like you or someone that has coaching clients, you know, you're willing to even have a loss because you know, you're getting the right people in the room where, you know, eventually some of them are going to sign up and do business with you. the

It will have been worth it.

Christian Brim (12:09.361)
Where do you see you helping? Which of those two types do you see yourself helping more or are you agnostic?

Phil Mershon (12:19.2)
I am agnostic as far as that goes. think, you know, I can help either one. the kinds of things that I talk about are going to help, you know, with they all, every, both of those want networking and connection. They want it to be a memorable event, something that people will talk about when they go back home and they're going to likely want to come back again. Like retention is super important. Word of mouth marketing is super important in both cases.

Christian Brim (12:32.117)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (12:42.111)
Right?

Phil Mershon (12:47.7)
So how you define success in terms of profit, that comes later. You know, I want to help increase profit if that's your goal or increase sales if that's your goal. And I think a great event is going to result in either one of those, depending on what your purpose is.

Christian Brim (13:05.685)
So where in starting your business, where in the journey did you write your book? mean, like, what was the intent in writing the book?

Phil Mershon (13:13.902)
I started writing around 2017 is when I first had the idea when I signed the contract was in 2019. So I'd written a book proposal and I started floating it. And, you know, third, fourth quarter, I guess, um, I signed the contract and began working on it. And then 2020, you know, the world falls apart and I wasn't trying to write first quarter, 2020. My plan was second quarter. Let's get it done.

Christian Brim (13:19.691)
Okay.

Phil Mershon (13:42.318)
But you know, who wants an event book in the middle of a pandemic? So the publisher and I both agreed we should put it on hold until it made sense to pull it back out, which took until I think it was early 22 when I started working on it again. And that's the year we got it done and, you know, prepped for publishing by the end of the year. And then it was September of 23 when it came out.

Christian Brim (14:06.475)
So, so if I got the timeline right, you started writing the book before you had started your business. So it wasn't like you go ahead.

Phil Mershon (14:13.742)
Correct. Yeah. When I, sorry. Well, no, I started the business, you know, formally like applied with the state of Kansas and said, okay, I'm putting a stake in the ground. I'm going to do this business. But it was a dabbling. Um, I didn't really have a business plan. Um, but that was around the time that I started really writing the book, like 17 and 18 was just, you know, I wrote hundreds of thousands, a hundred thousand words, probably.

And a lot of different things, but I didn't really have it figured out. Like what's my model? How does this all fit together? It took a few years for that to all gel in my brain.

Christian Brim (14:52.546)
So was it kind of like part of the process of you deciding to start a business and what that business actually would look like?

Phil Mershon (15:05.55)
I think yes. And definitely the pandemic threw a wrench, you know, in terms of the business, like I put it on hold, just like I did the book and, know, wasn't as serious in getting the book or the business back out. once I came out of the pandemic, it's like, just didn't have the same drive for it and wasn't sure, is that the direction I want to go? I was asking a lot of those questions. So it was really last year. when that became more clear.

Christian Brim (15:09.545)
Right?

Christian Brim (15:22.859)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (15:35.169)
So what would you say in your journey right now is your biggest challenge as an entrepreneur?

Phil Mershon (15:47.786)
Like I said, focusing on running the business while having multiple things going on. So I'm a, I am a creative, I'm a polymath and I easily get distracted by things I'm interested in that might not be profitable. You just ask my wife. And so having the focus and the discipline to

Christian Brim (16:04.457)
Yes.

Phil Mershon (16:14.904)
pursue the things that are going to be profitable while still doing the things that are fun. I need the fun. I need the music to feed my creative soul, which does end up germing up ideas or generating ideas for things that will be profitable. So I think the biggest challenge is working on the business and making time for that. every, you know, probably pretty much every day.

Christian Brim (16:42.934)
Have you read the book Free the Idea Monkey? I think it's the title of it. It's a great book. these creative types are identified as the idea monkey, of which the author self-identifies. But it's really kind of a book for both people that work with idea monkeys and for idea monkeys themselves, and kind of like how we're different and how to deal with each other.

Phil Mershon (16:48.576)
I've never heard of it.

Christian Brim (17:12.371)
I think one of the things that I have seen with people that are uber creative is it is real hard to I don't know if focus is the right word I would use it. It's more like

linear paths, you know, setting out a path and milestones and walking it like, and so maybe that is focus. but it's, it seems to be a common issue. do you think that the creative's brain is wired such that that can be overcome internally? you, you know, well,

Okay, hold on a second. I'm gonna go back. I just came back from a mastermind. It was my first mastermind I've ever joined. there was a presenter there that was talking about mindset and most of what he said was not novel to me, but he put it in a different format that was very good summary. But essentially, he was talking about how our subconscious beliefs

are what drive most of our actions. It's not our cognitive conscious brain that makes most of our decisions to cause actions. And essentially until that belief is brought out of the subconscious and analyzed and dealt with, you're not going to fundamentally change your behavior, right? And so

I guess my question to you is, is it a belief that you can't focus or is it really how your brain's wired like I'm not going to be able to ever be focused?

Phil Mershon (19:15.624)
So something I've learned, in the last few months is I, I have ADHD and I wouldn't be surprised if that's common among creatives. And so I am working on trying to manage that both through meds and, personal practices. And if I look back over my adult life, I can see the pattern, which I hadn't really noticed before.

Christian Brim (19:22.134)
Yes.

Christian Brim (19:27.264)
Yes?

Christian Brim (19:41.547)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Phil Mershon (19:44.026)
it has become more pronounced recently. I'm not sure all the reasons for that. I you know, I'm convinced social media has played a part in that, just because it's, you know, it's distracting and it can keep you away from, from deeper thought. I know one thing for me is if I don't have creative outlets, there's something that happens to my soul.

Christian Brim (19:53.702)
God.

Christian Brim (20:10.176)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Phil Mershon (20:13.834)
and my creativity. So I become less creative if I'm not doing creative things that maybe have nothing to do with my primary. It's just a matter of balancing that with not doing that so much that I'm not actually working on, you know, the projects, the business, that I have, you know, before me.

Christian Brim (20:15.915)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (20:35.914)
Yeah, I, it's interesting you say that because I, my first reaction to that is entrepreneurship is like the ultimate creative activity, right? in other words, I, I, I, think an entrepreneur at heart could never find, the end of that trail, of, of finding problems and solving them. Like that's just.

Phil Mershon (20:47.128)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (21:05.579)
kind of the way we see the world. But I think what's happened in my journey and I think happened with what kind of what you're describing is when those things that you're having to do to solve those problems aren't terribly interesting to us, right? And that's where

the roadblocks come up. instance, mean, you know, obviously I wrote Profit First for creatives. I finances is one of those common things. you know, I know as a business owner that I've got to get my finances in order, but I don't understand it. I don't like it. I don't have any experience with it. So I don't do it. Now you could take that to project management or

Phil Mershon (21:58.115)
Yep.

Christian Brim (22:03.33)
know marketing activities or whatever it is you don't like to do. Does that resonate? that sound?

Phil Mershon (22:11.502)
Oh, a hundred percent. Like I'll do it for a while, but then I lose interest, you know, and wish that I was making enough money that I could pay somebody to do it for me, which now isn't real right now. So yeah, whether it's finance or project management or even like the production of my podcast, um, you know, I love this, the talking, but the producing is like, yeah, someone else could do that. Now I've been doing it for 25 episodes. I'm.

Christian Brim (22:13.098)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (22:33.119)
Right, right.

Christian Brim (22:37.738)
Yes.

Phil Mershon (22:39.65)
I'm good.

Christian Brim (22:41.782)
Yeah, and I think you hit on a good point is the economics of it, right? So, you know, you like doing the recording of the podcast, maybe the planning of it, the interview, selecting guests, I don't know, you know, what aspects of it you like, but post-production and maybe distributing it and marketing it doesn't interest you. And I think the quicker...

we can figure out how to offload those things that we can't, well, can't, won't do, is the key to success. I was just recalling this story yesterday of Walt and Roy Disney. I think we talked about this when we spoke earlier, but the, wants to, Walt wants to put the monorail through the hotel.

And he comes in and he's pitching it to Roy, his brother, who is the operational guy. And Roy has a fit because it's going to cost millions of dollars and they've already drawn the architectural plans and blah, blah, blah. And Walt just throws up his hands and said, I don't care how much it costs, just figure it out and walks out. Well, of course there is a monorail through the hotel. So he did fix it. He did figure it out. But you know, someone like Walt.

that was uber creative, I don't think he could figure it out. Like he needed that Roy to be able to execute on that vision. And I think most of us have to play both of those roles. Like we don't have that other person that can be our operator, our executor.

Phil Mershon (24:40.494)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (24:42.987)
What?

Phil Mershon (24:43.02)
I'm curious, you know, back when I was a pastor, I was introduced to a study. think Harvard did it or one of the business schools out East and they were talking about three different kinds of managers. And one is a manager of ideas. One is an operational manager and one is a people manager. And the model that was presented is really on a staff for a church. And I think within a business, there's the

The article was in businesses. you need those three types of leadership for a company to be successful. And normally those don't all reside in one person. We might have a dominant and a secondary, we probably aren't all three. Definitely true of me idea. First people, second operations is like, you know, way out the window, not even on the list probably. And so you're, you're making a good case of.

Christian Brim (25:27.509)
Right.

Phil Mershon (25:40.554)
Maybe they're not like an equal to you, like Roy and Walt were, but maybe you've got someone that you can get on the team that, can cover that weakness and getting to that place as fast as you can, I think is your point.

Christian Brim (25:50.09)
Yes.

Christian Brim (25:54.036)
Yes, I think initially you might even have to, you know, go to Upwork or Fiverr, you know, find somebody to do that temporarily economically. But, you know, it assumes that what you're you're ideating, what your vision is, is actually profitable, which, know, unfortunately, most most creatives aren't in that mindset. Like, you know, it's like

There's this idea, but the question of will it work? Do people want it? Can it make money? Those questions don't ever pop up. but I think, you know, from a business standpoint, without that creative vision, the business is doomed to mediocrity. mean, you know, you're, basically stuck doing what you've always done or

what everybody else is doing. there's no 10Xing a business without that creative energy. And as an entrepreneur trying to get your business going, it can be a real challenge to walk that line of, I need to execute on pieces of these things, but

I don't have the money. I don't have the time. I, you know, I don't have the desire and, getting enough traction to produce profit so that you can start offloading those things consistently and focus, focus on the vision. It's, it's, it's, know, I mean, that's, that's why only 4 % of businesses in the United States, exceed a million dollars in revenue, which is a staggering thing to me.

I mean, you you think of a million dollar revenue company, that's tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, but only 4 % of the businesses that start reach that.

Phil Mershon (27:58.828)
That is surprising. I know I heard this stat once that only one out of five make it past five years. which is yeah, but to get to the million dollar mark. I know a business consultant friend of mine said it's even obviously smaller to get to the 10 million mark. cause it takes a mindset shift to go from one to 10, just like it probably does to go from a hundred thousand to a million.

Christian Brim (28:05.227)
Probably right. Yeah, I think that was an SBA statistic.

Christian Brim (28:27.145)
Yes. What happens is the things that got you from point A to point B won't get you to point C and most entrepreneurs, you know, depending upon the timeframe and their, their life circumstances, you know, they, they get to that inflection point and they're like, you know what? I'm good. Like I don't, I don't have the power, the passion, the interest, the time.

to take that next step. And that's perfectly fine. But I think having a realistic idea of, you know, the landscape is important because, you know, I think creative entrepreneurs tend to be not Pollyanna, but, very what's the word I'm looking for?

enthusiastic, optimistic, that's what I'm looking for. That this thing will work. And I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, I think if you know what's necessary to succeed, you're much more likely to succeed than if you just go into it with rose colored glasses.

Phil Mershon (29:52.588)
Well, and you know, let's go into my world a little bit of saxophone and there are a lot of starving saxophonists in New York city. I've been told, you know, like every corner there's a saxophonist and, and they're, you know, they're great players, but they're not running. They're playing as a business. And I think that's what happens. You know, then you got the Kenny G's and the people out there who've made a lot of money because they've figured out how to focus their talent.

Christian Brim (30:02.123)
Yes, yes.

Christian Brim (30:08.182)
Right?

Phil Mershon (30:21.034)
in a way that the market is ready for. And people then become jealous of him and criticize him because he's not playing real jazz or whatever it might be, but he's figured out how to meet a need in the market with his playing. And he still plays real jazz, but not on those recordings. And I think that can end up happening. I know it happens to me sometimes. I just get enamored by the creativity. I want to write another book instead of remembering, you know, there's some really good stuff in this book.

Christian Brim (30:38.624)
Right.

Phil Mershon (30:51.086)
And people like it. Like I did a webinar or a workshop earlier this month and I was thinking I needed to create a brand new set of material for them. And after a while I realized, you know what? My book creates the framework for this conversation and it can be the springboard. And I've already put a lot of thought into that. Why am I trying to create something new? Um, yeah, I've got a new book that needs to be written that has nothing to do with the last book, but, um, that's not what they needed.

Christian Brim (31:20.787)
Yeah, I had this conversation on one of my early episodes with my daughter, who's a figurative oil painter. And, you know, she she says that true creativity is divine, like it's it's part of that divine nature. And therefore it it really can't be.

molded or modified to fit what is economically viable. And, you know, I think that's an interesting, I mean, she's 28. So, you know, it's an interesting belief, but I think there's some truth to it. Like, you know, I mean, you might accidentally say, create something that everybody wants.

But more than likely whatever you create that's that is interesting to you is not interesting to someone else And I think what you're saying is is repurposing that creativity With the understanding that you're gonna have to give something up potentially to to make it what Is is commercially viable?

But that's not like selling your soul. That's just like, you know, drawing a boundary. And then if you want to go do just creativity for creativity's sake, you do it. But you don't have the same intent behind

Phil Mershon (33:02.594)
Yeah. One of my mentors is a guy named Dan Miller who passed away a couple of years ago, but he said, you need to look for the intersection of your passion, purpose, and profit. And when something's profitable, you're passionate about it and it fits your purpose. And you look at that intersection, that's, that's where your gold is. And that's the place that you should focus your business. But like you said, your avocations could be, you know, something different. Now my son is a, is a poet.

Christian Brim (33:13.665)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (33:30.23)
Yeah.

Phil Mershon (33:32.51)
And he writes a couple of poems every single day. but he full well knows that it could be, you know, years, decades, and sometimes in the afterlife, so to speak, you know, after you pass away that poems are find the place where someone becomes famous. And there are art forms that are like that, but that doesn't deter him from the daily passion to write. Because I think that that's, I think something about creativity is the daily.

Christian Brim (33:50.219)
Right.

Phil Mershon (34:01.806)
practice of it builds the muscles and builds the long-term creativity that, you one day it will result in an opportunity if you stay at it.

Christian Brim (34:13.249)
Yeah, and I think my experience and what I've seen with others is that the further they get along that journey of balancing the vision with the implementation, the more processes, more systems they put into place, the more people they involve, the more bandwidth they have for creativity.

It's where, where they get stuck in trying to do it all and, and can't that they get frustrated and then their creativity collapses. I mean, because that's, you know, you're stressed, you have anxiety about, all those things. But I look at you, somebody like Iron Maiden. Now I, couldn't stand Iron Maiden when I was a teenager.

I have come to appreciate their music. But as a business, there's nobody better, right? I mean, they still sell out everywhere they go to huge crowds. But it's a business. They're a business first and artists second. are they the best musicians in the world? No, but that's not what it's about.

Phil Mershon (35:43.798)
Yeah, I think that is a great case. They understand their market. They understand their capabilities and that intersection and they know how to create an experience. know, grateful deads, another great example. They know how to, they knew how to create a great experience and people would go to every concert because it was going to be different every night. And I think, you know, that understanding of yourself and that intersection, and that's the profit part of that, that triad.

is when you understand where that intersection is, then it can be a sustainable business. And I know I get distracted sometimes by just going into what I'm passionate about and not keeping in that intersection. And then I get frustrated because it's, you know, I'm not finding clients or not finding opportunities. And, you know, that becomes depressing and it creates a cycle of spinning out and, you know,

Christian Brim (36:33.397)
Right. Yes.

Phil Mershon (36:38.71)
having to emerge again and try again. And I think you're, you're really helping just in this conversation for getting me, focused on what is that vision? What is that? You know, that vision that is bigger than what anybody's doing that I'm uniquely qualified to do. And, know, I know I've got that. It's why I've been hired by a number of people, but I lose sight of it sometimes.

Christian Brim (36:55.241)
Yes.

Christian Brim (37:03.323)
Yeah, it is easy to have the vision clouded when it's over the horizon. There is a boulder or a mountain in front of you. But I think to your point, the vision doesn't go away. It's not gone. It's just obscured temporarily. I think that...

The whole purpose thing, I look at you and I, know, after my discussions with you and reading your book, I can tell you're passionate about it. I will stipulate the purpose, you know, that you feel there's a purpose behind it. And I definitely see the profit component because, you know, I've been to so many bad events.

that like there's a match between what you do and the market need, if you will. So I would encourage you to continue down that road because I think you're onto something.

Phil Mershon (38:13.328)
and I know I am, you know, I'm getting those signals from a number of places. It's just, think the marketing, that's the part that I'm not as good at and struggle with both consistency and just knowing, you know, where the people are and finding them. And so, and the stick to itiveness, that's probably one of my challenges.

Christian Brim (38:38.848)
Well, and I think, I think though, I guess I would agree with all of those things, but I think the thing that you and people like you bring to the table is you already have a built in advantage with your creativity. Like, so, so it's like, okay, here's this problem. How can I solve it the way no one else has solved it? Like, you know, you don't have to do marketing the way everybody else does. Right. I mean,

You have the ability to come up with a novel solution to the problem. Whereas most people out there are like, well, I put some stuff on digital marketing and I've sent out some mailers and nothing's happening. And then they're, they're stuck. It's like, well, I don't know. You know, every everybody's got convergent thinking very few of the entrepreneurs or people out there. think entrepreneurs generally have a divergent.

path of thinking. like, well, have we thought about this? Have we thought about that? So, I have complete faith that you'll figure it out.

Phil Mershon (39:45.678)
Yeah, it's a really interesting point that we can use our creativity in a certain box, but we don't think about using it somewhere else. You know, like in marketing or like in, you know, looking at operations in a different way. Cause now you wrote the book profit for trade is profit first for creatives. And I know there's books out there about organization for creatives and like, we don't have to do it the same way.

as everybody else to accomplish our goal. so having that permission, I think is important.

Christian Brim (40:22.731)
have to turn off my space heater.

Christian Brim (40:31.957)
Sorry, Nick. He's the audio engineer.

Phil Mershon (40:37.4)
Ha ha ha.

Christian Brim (40:39.339)
So I would love to hear you play some saxophone for the audience.

Phil Mershon (40:44.736)
Let's do it.

Phil Mershon (40:52.27)
you

Christian Brim (40:57.0)
Ladies and gentlemen, Phil Mershon.

Phil Mershon (41:00.568)
you

Hey, I'm gonna start this over. I just realized my reed is a little bit dry. It dried out during that. So let me go back and...

Christian Brim (41:21.249)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (41:29.092)
You have to have a wet read.

Phil Mershon (42:04.962)
you

Phil Mershon (42:26.158)
HONK HONK

Phil Mershon (42:49.868)
you

Phil Mershon (43:01.966)
Bye!

Phil Mershon (43:08.91)
you

I'm so happy. I'm so happy. I'm so happy.

Christian Brim (43:35.283)
Ladies and gentlemen, Phil Mershon. You definitely have have raised the bar for guest talent on our show.

Phil Mershon (43:47.212)
Now everybody has to do that from this point forward, right?

Christian Brim (43:49.282)
Or something. I mean, they got to have some, you know, some talent to demonstrate. So Phil, how do people find out more if they want to work with you or purchase your book?

Phil Mershon (44:01.762)
So Phil at PhilMershon.com is probably the best email to go to. My website is PhilMershon.com. LinkedIn and Facebook are the two best platforms and all my social media links are on PhilMershon.com.

Christian Brim (44:18.05)
Phil, thank you very much for your time and your talents is very much appreciated. Listeners, if you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, follow the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear and we'll get rid of Phil. Until then, ta-ta for now.

Phil Mershon (44:39.756)
Thank you.