Unlocking the Secrets of Creative Marketing | Tracy Burnett

In this episode of the Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim speaks with Tracy Burnett, a seasoned marketing consultant with over 35 years of experience. Tracy shares her journey from corporate marketing to running her own consultancy, emphasizing the importance of differentiation and understanding client needs. They discuss the challenges creative agencies face in marketing themselves, the significance of problem-solving in targeting clients, and the intricacies of pricing strategies. Tracy also highlights the value of nurturing existing client relationships and overcoming business obstacles. The conversation concludes with insights on how to connect with Tracy and access her resources.

Ready to turn your PASSION into PROFIT?!? Let's get CREATIVE ➡️
https://www.coregroupus.com/profit-first-for-creatives

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.687)
Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Tacoma, Washington. I've been to Seattle, which is close, but not to Tacoma. Maybe I did. Maybe I drove through it. I don't know. In any case, thank you for listening. Joining us today is Tracy Burnett.

Tracy, welcome.

Tracey Burnett (00:33.848)
Thank you very much for inviting me. It's great to be here. I'm looking forward to this.

Christian Brim (00:39.193)
Oh, you may regret that decision. I don't know. You, you, you, you never know until you go through it. So, uh, tell the audience, uh, who Tracy is and what Tracy does.

Tracey Burnett (00:41.837)
enough

Tracey Burnett (00:50.798)
Tracy is Tracy Tracy Burnett. I live in Bath, a Georgian city in the UK. Recently back after spending eight years living in Spain, I have two grown up children, one of which is married, and I'm passionate about food and health. Business wise, I have had a long career. I've spent eight years in corporate marketing and advertising with companies like Unilever and Barclays.

three years as the board director at Top London Design Consultancy, 18 years in digital marketing, 6,000 hours plus mastering LinkedIn, and 35 years running my own consultancy.

Christian Brim (01:33.497)
Well, you definitely have the chops then. So what is the current iteration of your business?

Tracey Burnett (01:41.174)
Okay, so obviously I've had a marketing consultancy for 35 years, over the over that time, obviously it's changed massively. But what hasn't

Christian Brim (01:49.785)
Yes. I mean, 3530. mean, for reference 35 years is pre internet. Yeah. Okay.

Tracey Burnett (01:57.438)
it is. So, so I, I used to, well, I started basically because I got made redundant. The London Design Consultancy I was working for had overstretched itself globally and by adding, I know, buying companies, extending into other countries and basically just overstretching itself. And I had loads of

offers from other London agencies. By this time I was a board director of the agency, had a good track record, but I was in the middle of moving out of London down to near Bath in the countryside. And so I started working with creative agencies and that's probably the thing that hasn't really changed. I just felt that because the recession was biting at the time,

Any of the highly creative designers that had moved from working for somebody to working for themselves was starting to struggle. And the fact that I worked for a company was very highly regarded from a creative point of view. I had business development and account management experience. I'd worked in corporate marketing departments, which were basically their clients. So I was quite an attractive proposition.

So, but that's probably about the only thing that stayed the same is the fact that I work with not only creative led agencies, I work with all sorts of marketing services agencies, know, in UX, interior design, video production. mean, you know, I work with quite a few different types of what I tend to say are marketing services agencies. But you know, it was all about picking up the phone.

and try to get meetings and jumping in the car and go into the meetings, coming back, typing up a proposal, or the secretary did that on a very, very, very basic computer, and then binding that proposal and jumping back in the car and go and present it. So yeah, it's a totally different world.

Christian Brim (04:11.513)
Okay, so yes, that's true. I need to scratch this itch that's in my brain. Is Bath, that's bath for us Yankees, is that near Henley on Thames?

Tracey Burnett (04:22.903)
Yeah, that's...

Tracey Burnett (04:29.248)
Well, in American terms, yes, because it's quite close. So to get from Henley, you you've got sort of London and then you go directly west and you hit Henley very, very quickly. And then you're probably another hour and a half west to the lovely city of Bow.

Christian Brim (04:51.361)
Okay, thank you. I just needed some context there. so back to the agency. So what do you do? Or let's say what do you do now for these creative agencies?

Tracey Burnett (05:05.166)
Okay, pretty much the same as I was doing then. So, you know, doesn't matter which country this, you know, my client is in, whether it's, you know, the, you know, Dubai, or whether it's in America, Canada, UK, the same sort of applies. So mainly they're coming to me saying, I need more clients, or I want more clients. So they

Christian Brim (05:28.93)
Hmm

Tracey Burnett (05:32.246)
often start at step six, which is I want more clients. So can you please help me with my LinkedIn profile? And I go, whoa, no, yes. Well, yes, but no. So first of all, what we're going to do is we're going to set a really strong foundation for your business, which many of them maybe have attempted or maybe not. But what we're going to do is put a few more bricks and cement down. So first of all, I start to look at why they're different.

because there's a lot of noise out there as we all know and uncovering your authentic uniqueness. So you stand out, make sure that you don't lose out. You don't, you you want a client to look at your website or look at your LinkedIn profile and say, Hey, these guys are for me. And that's mainly dumb because you've, you know, you're building on your strengths.

specialized in some way. So you might be the annual report designer for engineering, business sector. And if they're in the engineering sector, and they're looking for an annual report, well, you're good to go. So it's all about differentiation, really, niching down on what your target audience should be, which people sort of, you know, start to squirm, when you start talking about that.

and then working with the marketing message. So that's the differentiation bit out of the way. And then...

Christian Brim (07:01.689)
Okay, let me ask a clarifying question. I'm sorry to interrupt. So, okay, so when you say creative agency and you describe some examples there, are you making a distinction from marketing agencies or are you using those terms interchangeably?

Tracey Burnett (07:04.526)
Yeah.

Tracey Burnett (07:20.322)
Well, I'm using the term marketing services agencies, which is any type of agency or consultancy that offers a marketing service. So obviously there's so many, so that, it could be graphics, could be, as I say, video production, could be events, you know. So,

Christian Brim (07:33.302)
Okay.

Christian Brim (07:39.321)
I find that curious that marketing agencies would need essentially you to come in and help them do marketing for themselves.

Tracey Burnett (07:52.434)
I know, and that's what hasn't changed. Unbelievably that you would have thought that marketing agencies could do that. But if you think back to what I've just said about where I started, where you had a lot of award winning, you know, creative designers going out, starting their own business.

Christian Brim (07:55.991)
Yeah.

Tracey Burnett (08:20.598)
It was fine. It's all fine when the economy is good and when, you know, clients are, you know, picking up the phone or sending email saying, Hey, can you, you know, we'd like to send you a brief. But when things get tough, they really don't have much idea about how to go about marketing the business. And the same way as any entrepreneur.

You wear many different hats. You can't be good at everything. You I'm not very good at, you know, you're going to hate this, but you know, I'm not really interested in numbers, particularly that doesn't float my boat. But, you know, marketing and being creative in marketing does float my boat. But there's so many hats that we all need to wear. can't be good at everything. And I think one of the big. Benefits really is.

Christian Brim (08:56.194)
Right.

Tracey Burnett (09:09.748)
is being able to see that you can't be good at everything and you shouldn't be good at everything and you shouldn't attempt everything. I don't do my accounts myself, I hire an accountant. I hire a lawyer if I needed one, I wouldn't try and do it myself. So the difference between those things, accountancy and law, is that nobody really does think that they can do it themselves. But when it comes to marketing, they think they can.

Christian Brim (09:18.51)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (09:38.071)
Yeah, that's interesting. I, it's, kind of the, the shoemakers kids have no shoes. and, and I would agree. That's my experience with, marketing agencies that I've worked with both as a vendor and as clients. and I do agree with you that it is a ubiquitous problem among entrepreneurs and small businesses, not defining their target market, but

My comments on that are one, think that ultimately the reason that, well, the reason we did it, and I think it's subconscious for the most part, is that people don't want to limit themselves. They feel like if they say we're only going to go after these types of customers or clients, we're somehow limiting the growth of our company.

When the exact opposite is true. and, the second thing I would say is that I think target target customer is actually not, not the first step. think as an entrepreneur, as a creative entrepreneur, the first question you have to ask is what problem are you solving?

Tracey Burnett (10:38.731)
Absolutely.

Christian Brim (11:03.718)
Because that will tell you who the target customer is, right?

Tracey Burnett (11:08.662)
Well, I tend to work with them both. in a way, yeah, I partly agree with what you say.

Christian Brim (11:20.909)
Well, I could see if you said, okay, I want to target for whatever reason, I want to target this segment. You could then at that point, dig in and say, okay, what are the problems they have? Right. But for me, I feel like kind of approaching it more broadly to say, what are the problems I see? Rather than being

being fixated because what I see a lot of professionals and accountants are just as bad if not worse than marketers in this is that they tend to view the world from what they do. So, you know, they do bookkeeping, payroll and taxes or, you know, we do videography, website design, you know, whatever, rather than looking at

Tracey Burnett (12:05.838)
Thank you.

Christian Brim (12:18.895)
from the customer standpoint of what is the problem that they have.

Tracey Burnett (12:25.55)
Yeah, no, I agree with that. And quite obviously, if you're a graphic designer, you're not all of a sudden going to specialize in video production. so, you there is a certain, you know, you know what your parameters are in terms of what you can offer. But generally speaking, even if you're a graphic designer, there's, you know, that could be, you you've got a wide set of skills that you could apply.

Christian Brim (12:35.064)
Right?

Christian Brim (12:53.688)
Yes.

Tracey Burnett (12:53.71)
you could do annual reports or you could do something completely different. I had a client who was doing websites and really didn't want to do that and really liked the UX side of it and had got some experience in that, but was not very confident about doing that.

Christian Brim (13:13.689)
Mm-hmm.

Tracey Burnett (13:14.016)
And so the positioning that we sort of ended up with was all about UX as it pertains to things like membership sites and subscription. And so they came in with the belief that they couldn't move from doing websites, that they'd have to wait a year until they got some more case studies. But, you know, within literally three months, we'd, we'd switch that. And, you know, those companies have got very specific set of needs. So

Christian Brim (13:24.761)
Okay.

Christian Brim (13:30.649)
Mm.

Tracey Burnett (13:43.506)
The way I start is by asking a shedload of questions and then I start to...

Christian Brim (13:49.881)
Pause. Did you say shitload or shed load? Okay, sorry. I'm all right. Go ahead. Sorry. Lost in translation.

Tracey Burnett (13:52.97)
shed load.

Tracey Burnett (13:58.421)
Yes, sorry. So I tend to ask a heck of a lot of questions and then I'll read through the answers and I'll, you know, and then we'll start brainstorming. And so, so going back to your original point of, know, what was your start point? It's, you know, it's sort of a bit of a moot point about which it is. Yeah, you do. You absolutely do.

Christian Brim (14:19.437)
Yes, you have to answer both.

Christian Brim (14:24.055)
You have to you have to know what problem you're solving and who you're solving it for. And then I'd add the third thing, which is actually segues into the next question I want to ask you is, is that only when you understand the problem you're solving, do you really understand the value of your solution and therefore what you can charge. So

Tracey Burnett (14:29.195)
Yeah

Christian Brim (14:52.589)
You know, for, for, for most creative marketing endeavors, there's some revenue component of that, right? I mean, at some point they're trying to use this to gain more business. And, it may, you know, you, you need to know it with more specificity than that, but, it, your solution has to solve their problem.

in a way that is more valuable than the alternatives that they have, whether that's doing it in-house or your competitors. But the question I have then is, how do you price your services?

Tracey Burnett (15:37.996)
I don't have set products really, and I don't really have a set price. And so what I tend to do is every, every new client has started with an initial conversation, which is, know, where we don't talk about working together necessarily. We'll see if we're fit. And then I start to uncover what their goals are, what their,

you know, what their issues are. then what I'll do is if they want to take it to the next stage and I want to take it to the next stage, then I will come up with a bespoke proposal. And that's I don't have a set price is the upshot of it. And it could be because you've got that piece that we've just talked about, which is, you know, the differentiation, the, you know, the foundational bit. And then you've got

you know, we sort of touched on product. does the product, do we need to look at the product and pricing? And then we've got the marketing strategy. So how are we actually going to take all of this to market and how are we going to implement that? And so, so there's quite, and then are we going to work together on a long-term basis? So for example, do you have a junior person looking after marketing? And

you know, you want me to sort of hold their hand and keep everybody accountable or whatever. I mean, again, I can stay, I can stay with them for a number of months to make sure that, you know, what we've set up is actually working and also to keep them on track. So, you know, obviously the price of just doing one small piece is a lot cheaper than doing the whole thing, obviously. So then it comes down to, you know, part of the initial conversations are, well,

Christian Brim (17:24.611)
Sure, sure.

Tracey Burnett (17:33.122)
you know, how much, you know, how much do you want to spend? And then, you know, I might say, well, how much, you know, this is how much I think you should spend. a client recently said that their goal was to have 1 million in revenue in the next 12 months. Well, the initial project that we talked about was basically just trying to put together the jumble of marketing and marketing promotional elements that they

and try and make the best of the bits that they were doing. And so when I started to question them, and certainly when this million pound goal came out, I'm saying, look, you're never gonna do that with what you've got at the moment. You're gonna need to spend five, seven, 10 % of your revenue on your marketing if you want to be absolutely sure of hitting that target.

Christian Brim (18:07.81)
Right.

Tracey Burnett (18:32.012)
And so if then that they're comfortable with that, then great, we can do something. It might be that they're saying, okay, I might not do a million in the next year, let's make that goal in the next three years. And so we can start to build. So I'm very much a person that tries to tailor the marketing solutions to the people within the business, the resource within the business in terms of time, and also

what they're comfortable with in terms of budget. And if I feel that the budget they have or the time they have is just not enough to achieve the goal that they want, I will say so because I don't really want to take on a project where nobody gets any sort of satisfaction out of it because the results are achieved. And I don't want them spending the money because that's just a waste. So I will try and come up with another solution they can, you know, that they can implement in the meantime.

Christian Brim (19:31.395)
Fair enough. so the pricing truly is custom. then my question would be, actually have two questions on that. Is there, you mentioned like there, there's some threshold at the bottom of like, isn't worth my effort, your effort. You're not going to be successful. Is the, is there some type of, I call them scarecrows that you set out.

Tracey Burnett (19:35.566)
custom.

Christian Brim (19:59.53)
to scare off the clients that you don't want. Like these are like, we're not for you if you can't do at least XYZ.

Tracey Burnett (20:10.386)
yeah, I sort of, yeah, I have another little phrase which is relates to content really called lighthouse content where you're calling. Yeah. So, do you know, you never know. You never know until you really get into conversations with people and go back to this client who said that her goal was a million. would never have, you know, I would never have never known.

Christian Brim (20:16.249)
Yeah.

Tracey Burnett (20:38.862)
I mean, we're still attracted to each other, you know, at the lower end of the budget, but she's got bigger aspirations. So, you know, partly, yes, I don't know whether I come across as being somebody that is very difficult to see the label on the outside of the job when you're sitting inside the jar and you need to do research for that, which I try and do at least once a year. But, you know, you never know what people's perceptions are of you. I just want to be

Christian Brim (20:47.214)
Right.

Christian Brim (20:58.627)
Yes.

Tracey Burnett (21:08.494)
I just want to come across somebody that you could pick up the phone to or have a meeting with and have a conversation about what you want out of your business and to come away with some sort of guidance whether that's working together or it's something completely different.

Christian Brim (21:29.623)
Yes. Okay. So my second question then is when you're building the proposal in your custom pricing, do you consider the impact of that solution on the client and how much money it will make them as opposed to it doesn't have to be one or the other, but do you consider that as well as like the amount of time that it would take you to do?

Tracey Burnett (21:59.479)
Yes.

Christian Brim (21:59.757)
to work. Okay, good. Excellent. That's what I was hoping that was your answer. Because I think that's where the true pricing that that's where I think creatives unlock their true value is when they understand the impact of their solution and and it get out of the mindset of you know, day rates or hourly rates or

you know, whatever.

Tracey Burnett (22:30.828)
Yeah, you know, quite early on in the first call, I will always ask them questions like, you know, what's the, you know, the average, you know, you know, fee that you charge, you know, what's your profitability, what, you know, it could be, for example, if they're selling low value, they're selling volume, and, you know, low value, that's probably not fit for me.

But I'm probably unlikely in the sort of marketing services sort of area. But if they came to me wanting to sell a book, for example, or an online course, so somebody I know has a course in sales skills for creatives, if it was just marketing that, then I wouldn't be a good fit. Because if you're going to sell low cost product to many, you really need to be looking at

advertising and so I will ask them lots of little questions that tell me whether or not it's a shed load of questions in fact. So the other question is, what's your conversion rate? So how many people you talk to, how many of those go to proposal? How many of those where you've presented a proposal, how many sales do you get? What's your average?

Christian Brim (23:37.407)
A shed load of questions. Yes, yes.

Tracey Burnett (23:58.178)
value of a sale, what's the lifetime value of a client? And a lot of people don't know the answers to those questions. So,

Christian Brim (24:04.737)
Yeah, that was actually my follow up question was how many how many people do you talk to know the answers to that? And and and I think you know most most people in the marketing space whatever Whatever that component is it could be videography. It could be SEO. It doesn't matter It is helping your clients their clients

Tracey Burnett (24:11.278)
you

Christian Brim (24:31.723)
understand the answers to those questions is critical as well. I mean, I think that should be part of their process. Just like you do it for them, they should do it for their clients because until they understand that they don't know whether the solution and the value they bring is going to work. I was talking to a startup agency where she was wanting to do Facebook advertising. That's all she wanted to do. I think it was meta, so including Instagram, but

She wanted to target and work with coaches, online coaches. And she'd already come up with her service offerings and her pricing, right? And those were all great things. But then I asked her the question, I'm like, okay, so you produce a lead for one of these coaches. What is that worth to them?

And, and she just paused. She's like, I don't know, but I need to. And I'm like, yes, yes, you do. Because, because then you, I mean, how do you know what to price it? Like if, if, if, if, if they only, you know, let's just go through the math real quick. Let's say that the coach charges a hundred dollars a session and the, they convert one of five. And so, so, so they've to break even, they can only pay $20 lead.

Tracey Burnett (25:31.277)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (25:57.441)
And you're coming in with a solution that's $50 lead. Well, the math don't math. So it's not going to work. So yeah. So you you're not you're not as averse to numbers as you say you.

Tracey Burnett (26:05.464)
No, I agree.

Tracey Burnett (26:12.494)
No, no, no, I'm well, I'm you the numbers that I know, you know, my own little world. But you know, it was like going back to the million pounds of revenue client. Really, they wanted three clients at 200,000. And, and then a few at 100. And then the final 100,000 was made up of a small, you know, a smaller value product that she had.

And I said, okay, so I've got a client, it's worth probably to you over the year 200,000, will you pay me 10,000 commission? And she said, yeah, absolutely. So, you you can put these things in different ways to try and get answers out of people.

Christian Brim (26:56.311)
Yes. And I, I don't know if you're familiar with the American author, Perry Marshall. wrote 80 20 sales and marketing. but you know, one of the things he talks about in pricing using that principle of 80 20 is that, you know, and it's not always eight 80 20, but some, the principle still holds that some small fraction of your existing customers.

Tracey Burnett (27:03.5)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (27:25.005)
will pay you more if you give them more. And, and that an even smaller percentage of them will pay you a lot more than, than your, than they're paying. and, and so that, that, that, that business owner, your referencing seemed like she kind of got that idea, like, but I don't know if that, that, those numbers would actually work out that way, but that sounds kind of like what she was getting at. No.

Tracey Burnett (27:29.934)
Yeah.

Tracey Burnett (27:53.856)
Yeah, and if she wanted five big clients and she was willing to spend, let's say for argument's sake, 10,000 to get them all that that goes back to the 50,000 pounds that I was saying minimum she needs to spend on marketing. I mean, not with me, but you know, whether we know there was a number of different things that she could do. But I think, you know, you've hit on another good point now, which is your existing client base and so many companies.

don't look at their existing client base or their lapsed clients, people that haven't worked with you for a little while. There is always money left on the table because nurturing existing clients doesn't really exist because everybody's focused on getting leads, getting leads, getting leads.

Christian Brim (28:34.809)
Mmm.

Hmm. That's sage advice. I'm, I'm going to pivot and ask you, a different question. So in your 35 years working with agency owners, what, what comes to mind as the biggest challenge or obstacle you had to overcome in your own business?

Tracey Burnett (28:41.418)
It is.

Tracey Burnett (29:05.39)
think obviously there are ongoing challenges like too many ideas, like so many entrepreneurial people, not enough time to execute them or even evaluate them. Not enough time. Another classic is over delivering. You the end of the day, I want to make sure that that client feels they've got value and actually does have value. And we actually achieve the objective. So I have to say, you know, and I

Christian Brim (29:13.699)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (29:17.113)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Tracey Burnett (29:34.274)
hate to admit it to a finance person, but you know, over delivering is something I'm really good at. But I think the biggest challenge I had, and I'm going back a long time, was I had a major, I don't know how I got this client actually, but it was a building society, a major building society. Do you have those in States? They're like,

Christian Brim (30:03.545)
Yes, I don't know. don't know if they're called that usually like homeowners associations, even if they're like in a condo or a high rise. It's you know,

Tracey Burnett (30:11.114)
Yes, so they're basically banks, but they're owned by the members and, you the customers in fact, and it was a massive.

Christian Brim (30:18.941)
that sounds like a credit union. So it's a it's a financial institution.

Tracey Burnett (30:22.862)
So they operate like yes, financial institutions. So let's say a bank for argument's sake. And I was doing all of their marketing and I brought in a designer. And he used to go to meetings with me. And so he knew the client. And then one day, I got this phone call from this client saying,

We've decided that with immediate effect, we are not going to work with you because this designer whose name will remain, he will remain nameless, has said to us that he can do the work at two thirds of the price that you're charging us at the moment. So that's it. Thanks very much. Goodbye. And they were a major client.

Christian Brim (31:17.433)
So you got undercut by your vendor.

Tracey Burnett (31:18.446)
So that was all right.

Yes, who actually was a friend. I mean, not only are you coping with the financial fallout and the complete shock of it, but the fact that the betrayal of it, I mean, that's probably the biggest thing. I mean, as it happened, I was doing what sometimes I do as I do research for companies. And, you know, that amongst their their

Christian Brim (31:26.541)
Ouch.

Christian Brim (31:33.689)
The betrayal, yeah.

Tracey Burnett (31:51.662)
clients just to get another sort of perspective on how the agencies operating whatever and it just so happened that One of the people that I was speaking to Was the head of the UK government's marketing and advertising arm, which was massive. It doesn't exist anymore and You the millions that they spent on everything from the biggest sort of ad campaign right down to the smallest leaflet

And anyway, I went through my questions and whatever, and he said, well, what do you do? What's your business about? So I told him, he said, would you like to come in and talk to me? I said, yes, I'd love to come in and talk to you. And we just got on like a house on fire. And I ended up having this massive account with this government advertising and media agency. So.

Christian Brim (32:44.437)
One door closes, another opens.

Tracey Burnett (32:46.751)
Exactly. Yeah.

Christian Brim (32:48.845)
Well, I think that's, that's interesting. And I don't think it's unique, unfortunately, where in the professional services, you, you do have that, that, I guess risk that you either, whether they're employees or vendors, doesn't matter where, where they go out and compete against you. but I think that speaks to.

the need to really understand the value that you're bringing to the table and the solution you're bringing to the table because theoretically no one else can do that. Like if you've got it right and so like a piece of it like that designer could do a piece of it but they're not doing everything, right?

Tracey Burnett (33:38.19)
You know, the client doesn't understand that they sort of, they see me, they probably saw me as just a project manager. And what they don't realize is, that interpretation of their needs into, you know, a design brief, for example. And of course this guy could easily do project management. He did it with his own clients and his own business. There's no reason why he couldn't do that. And you could say, well,

Christian Brim (33:40.162)
Exactly.

Christian Brim (33:46.146)
Mmm.

Tracey Burnett (34:07.054)
You obviously weren't doing a good enough job Tracey, otherwise they would have kept you on. Who knows what the real problem was? I really couldn't say. But yeah, you just never know. It worked out.

Christian Brim (34:17.506)
Right.

Christian Brim (34:21.877)
It worked out. Right. How do people find you if they want to learn more about what you do or working with you?

Tracey Burnett (34:32.482)
Well, the best place to find me, funnily enough, is LinkedIn. That's where I spend my time. So my name Tracy Burnett, Tracy with an E, B-U-R-N-E-double T. You should find me straight away. So that's the best place. I have a quiz, if anybody would like to do that, and it's called, Are you ready to increase your leads and sales? So they could do that.

Christian Brim (34:57.773)
Yes, of course, everybody wants to do that. I think.

Tracey Burnett (35:01.494)
Okay, so I can point them in the right direction. Or if anybody would like a free LinkedIn profile review, hit me up, mention this podcast and I will give you a free review. So LinkedIn or my website.

Christian Brim (35:13.465)
Perfect. We'll have those links in the show notes, folks. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message and we'll get rid of Tracy. Until then, ta-ta for now.