Chic Spaces, Smart Strategies | Amy Barrickman

In this episode of the Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim speaks with Amy Barrickman, author of The Living Room Design Formula. They discuss the gap in the interior design market, the journey of becoming an interior designer, and the process of writing and marketing a book. Amy shares insights on how her book serves as a blueprint for DIY design enthusiasts and the challenges of transitioning from a successful career to pursuing her passion in design. In this conversation, Christian Brim and Amy Barrickman explore the multifaceted journey of parenthood, the challenges of writing a book, and the complexities of running an interior design business. They discuss the emotional rollercoaster of becoming a parent, the surreal experience of writing and sharing a book, and the various hurdles faced in the design industry, including pricing models and collaboration. The dialogue emphasizes the importance of understanding one's goals in entrepreneurship and the value of community and support in creative endeavors.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.186)
Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Cannonsburg, Pennsylvania. Never heard of it? Sounds cool though, it's got cannons in it. Joining me today, Amy Berikman, author of the Living Room Design Formula. Welcome.

Amy Barrickman (00:30.939)
Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

Christian Brim (00:34.456)
Did I say the title of the book correct? Okay, yes.

Amy Barrickman (00:37.147)
You sure did. The living room design formula.

Christian Brim (00:41.184)
I love it. Okay, so tell us a little bit about Amy.

Amy Barrickman (00:47.675)
Alright, oh gosh, well, where do we begin? It was a cold rainy day in 1982. No, I'm just kidding. I...

Christian Brim (00:51.618)
Yes. I prefer, I prefer the line from the jerk, where Steve Martin says I was born a poor, a poor black child. but that's not politically correct now. So go ahead.

Amy Barrickman (01:03.322)
That is a great movie though. Not all of it aged well, but it's a good one. Let's see, I'm an interior designer. I started my business about 15 years ago. And in doing that, I started to realize pretty early on that there is a big gap in the interior design market. There are people who hire interior designers like me, and then there are people who want to do it themselves.

Christian Brim (01:07.01)
Yes.

No.

Christian Brim (01:25.058)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (01:32.802)
Yes.

Amy Barrickman (01:32.825)
But then there's this huge in-between where people want to have that look of professionally designed room, but they don't want to hire a designer. Sometimes it's because of money, but not always. There are a lot of reasons why they wouldn't. So I realized that kind of early on and wanted to put together ideas about what if there was a blueprint, a formula someone could follow to get that professionally designed look, but not have to...

hire someone and work with them on a regular basis if they could still kind of do it themselves. So that's how I came up with the book, The Living Room Design Formula.

Christian Brim (02:09.966)
Okay, I have lots of thoughts. well, I have a question first. So did you create this book as a marketing tool for your interior design business?

Amy Barrickman (02:12.921)
good, share them all.

Amy Barrickman (02:27.352)
I actually did not. That is a common practice, as you know, for profitable creatives and a great one. I found myself in kind of the opposite situation. had a very successful, still have a very successful interior design business, but I also started branching out on social media. My sister challenged me to post one thing every day and something went viral and then all of a sudden I have this following.

Christian Brim (02:28.898)
Okay.

Yes.

Amy Barrickman (02:55.307)
But I really had nothing to offer them because they're all over the world and I'm just here outside of Philadelphia. So there was no way for me to reach those people. actually embarrassingly I don't. I feel that I should know that. My guess is it's near Gettysburg, right? Which is a beautiful part of the state. Beautiful. But hi, someone in Gettysburg. I would like to come visit you and I will look.

Christian Brim (02:57.71)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (03:04.344)
So do you know where Cannonsburg is?

Christian Brim (03:09.152)
Okay, all right, that's fine. Okay, sorry. There are a lot of birds in Pennsylvania. Lots of birds.

Amy Barrickman (03:24.225)
where it is on Google Maps.

Christian Brim (03:26.592)
Okay. So, so stipulating that you did not write this book to drive a business to your, to your current business and, and an aside, I, it's funny. I started to write the book, the profit of the pro first for creatives with the intent to gain, authority in the space. But as I wrote it, I realized that I didn't want it to be one of those business card books.

and and I've had people, you know reach out to me and like I Didn't even realize even after reading the book that you owned an accounting business and I'm like good. That's that was the intent So I what immediately came to mind was a book called save the cat. Are you familiar with it? Okay, so

Amy Barrickman (04:10.441)
He he he.

Amy Barrickman (04:20.501)
I'm not.

Christian Brim (04:22.958)
I haven't read save the cat. read a derivative book called save the cat for novelists, but it was written by a screenwriter, about essentially how to write a script that sells. And it was, he didn't call it a formula. They kind of strayed away from calling it formulaic, but he said these, these elements are common.

Like every great script has these elements. And, and so formula gives you this impression that it's, like an equation. Like if I put a and B together, I'm going to get C. So how, how would you respond to that about your book?

Amy Barrickman (04:55.259)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (05:09.204)
Well, that is really partially the goal. I had a lot of people that were coming to me and wanted my help and I simply couldn't service them. I simply didn't have the ability. So I thought if I just gave people a path that they could follow, they could get a great result. in design, there are no right answers, just like in writing a screenplay, of course. But what I hope to do is really help people focus. So there were points when I was writing this book that I thought,

Christian Brim (05:17.527)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (05:39.315)
Okay, if I'm working on a professional design, I might take it this direction or this direction, but I had to choose one. I had to choose one that makes sense for most people. And I think that that worked because I've had a lot of people reach out to me and say, this really changed the way I feel about my house. It changed the way I feel about what I do because a lot of times people are just living in spaces that are 85 % finished. This gives them the ability to take it to

Not quite 100 % because design is never really complete, but get them pretty close.

Christian Brim (06:15.07)
It that that just reminded me our head of client service. Her husband has been living in Nebraska doing his nurse anesthetist school for three years. And she's been commuting up to see him and he's been coming back to see her. They have a young child, very difficult thing to do. But she she sometimes does meetings from his place and where she does it, there's this plant hanging.

Amy Barrickman (06:35.206)
That would be hard.

Christian Brim (06:44.714)
in the background and I'm like, is that a real plant? And she goes, no, Trevor, Trevor couldn't keep a real plant alive. He just bought this plant thinking that he was going to decorate his space, but that was where it ended. And so I'm like, well, you've got to bring that plant back. I mean, it's it's iconic now. I mean, it's just this sad little plastic plant hanging from. Yeah. Sorry.

Amy Barrickman (07:06.673)
Great.

But you just described what I hear all the time, which is, you know, maybe Trevor's not interested in design, but for someone who wants a great looking space, they do this and I've done it. We all, it's human nature. You're kind of like, okay, I'm going to do this and you go out and you get something and then you get home and you're like, well, wait, now what? And where, what's, where does it go? What goes with it? I wanted to give people a

way to use checks and balances to make sure that when they are buying things, they're kind of going in the right, they're in the right lane, they know where they're going so that they can gather it and that it's not stressful and it's not annoying to them. It should be a fun process.

Christian Brim (07:55.736)
Well, what you said about writing the book where you had, as a professional designer, I could go this way, I could go that way, but you needed one for the book. I equate that to what I tell people about Profit First, is kind of like a chef. Chefs don't necessarily use recipes, right? But that's because...

they've used the recipes and then now they understand what they can change and what the change does. And so it's like, if you're gonna do profit first, if you're gonna do design, follow the recipe until at least you have some understanding of what those elements do.

Amy Barrickman (08:43.6)
Such a good comparison. So accurate for designing a room, designing a home, and of course, starting a business.

Christian Brim (08:51.372)
Yes, so let's talk about that for a minute. Tell us about your interior design business. How did you get into that?

Amy Barrickman (08:59.609)
Well, it wasn't a choice. I was forced to do it. No, that's not entirely true, but partially true. Non-consensual.

Christian Brim (09:01.812)
okay. Non-consensual interior design. I love that.

Amy Barrickman (09:11.511)
It felt that way. No, this is what happened is I, well, I wanted to be an actress. I moved to New York and I did not love the lifestyle of being a artist. So I got into sales. I did pharmaceutical sales and that was a really great career path for someone. mean, it was, it has a nice, you know, I had expensive, I had budget and car and all these things, but I really didn't like that.

Christian Brim (09:31.17)
Yes.

Amy Barrickman (09:40.982)
I didn't like selling something that wasn't mine and I didn't love it. So despite the fact that I had this great setup, I felt like I wanted to do something else. We moved outside of Philadelphia and I had this house that I had to decorate and I really didn't know what I was doing. I went back to design school and I went to back to school. I had already been to school. went back to school to study design and I fell in love with it. I thought, I wonder if I could make money doing this.

Christian Brim (10:09.92)
Hmm, yes.

Amy Barrickman (10:10.061)
I know that's a question you sometimes address. So I thought, wonder if this, I could actually make money doing this. Now remember, I'm starting from a pretty good salary. So it was not easy to just say, let's just give that all up. And then I will start doing this and see if I can make money.

Christian Brim (10:22.497)
No!

Christian Brim (10:29.224)
Yeah, go from making money to spending money. mean, that's, know.

Amy Barrickman (10:32.461)
Exactly, yeah. And with no prospects. So I... But this is the interesting part is I just felt I had to. I was doing this job that I didn't love. I really had a great setup and I still wasn't happy. And I felt that I really had no other choice. So I had reluctant support from my husband.

He supported me, but you know, obviously he wasn't thrilled about it.

Christian Brim (11:04.28)
Well, my wife cried when I told her that we were starting a business. So you're ahead of the game if he was supportive. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Barrickman (11:11.98)
So she gets it. She gets it, right? So I went, I started from square one, I started by working for someone else and I did that for about a year. And then I was like, I really want to do this. So I went on my own. I felt like I really had to kind of claw my way to learn all the things and do all the things, but it blossomed pretty quickly. And suddenly I found myself having a lot of clients.

Christian Brim (11:25.709)
Yeah.

Amy Barrickman (11:40.869)
and not a lot of support staff to get it all done.

Christian Brim (11:43.414)
Yes. You know, I, I, this is for outsiders perspective from interior design, because when I think initially about interior design, I think like at, at even an architectural level and like high, very high end, right. and I think that that obviously is a limited market, right. To be able to pay for that.

Amy Barrickman (12:02.227)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (12:13.681)
But then I've even seen like furniture stores that offer design services, right? To help sell their, so there's the, there seems to be, you, you mentioning this gap. Um, I, I see a lot of people that, that would want, uh, interior design service of some kind, but not at the full blown level is, is that.

Amy Barrickman (12:21.194)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (12:27.282)
Yes.

Amy Barrickman (12:41.203)
Right.

Christian Brim (12:42.528)
accurate.

Amy Barrickman (12:43.977)
Absolutely. And really the process of hiring an interior designer and working with an interior designer is a very intimate one. You're working on such a regular basis. I know everything about my clients. I know how many pairs of underwear they own. You know, it's like a ridiculous thing.

Christian Brim (12:52.238)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (13:00.312)
Pause, pause, pause. Why?

Amy Barrickman (13:05.181)
Well, if I'm renovating their closet, I have to know how much space we need. OK, I'm exaggerating using hyperbole.

Christian Brim (13:09.07)
You count you count their underwear Or you take it. Are you taking are you taking their word for it? You're not auditing their underwear

Amy Barrickman (13:20.477)
I'm not auditing it, but I'm looking in a drawer. I'm... The point is, it's... I'm paused. The point is, it's so... I know everything about them. know, you know, whose son drags mud in the house. I know, like, it's such an intimate relationship. And it's one that really you could not replicate on this widespread basis for people who... You know, you have to work with someone who can afford...

Christian Brim (13:23.488)
Okay, all right, sorry, sorry, Unpause, you're good, go ahead.

Christian Brim (13:45.784)
Right.

Amy Barrickman (13:49.784)
pay you for all that. And they do get a great result. But the cool thing about this is the only person who knows their house better than their interior designer is the person who lives in the house and owns it. So for people reading this book, they know already all the things they need to know. They just don't know how to put them together and make the best design product because how would they? I how often does someone design a space in their life

Christian Brim (13:50.965)
Right.

Amy Barrickman (14:19.909)
maybe 10 times depending on how often they move. It's not a skill that you're doing every day. It's impossible for someone who is not a professional to know all of the tricks and the trends and the ways to put things together.

Christian Brim (14:22.444)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (14:36.046)
So do you see this maybe evolving into some type of microservice offering where maybe you consult ad hoc, like they send you pictures and you, I'm just asking, just.

Amy Barrickman (14:50.917)
Yeah, no, that's a really, it's definitely on the radar because I have been thinking what other ways can I provide services? So right now, obviously I have the book, the living room design formula on Amazon, but I also am producing YouTube videos and trying to get a lot of information out there for people. And then, yes, I would like to maybe set up a cohort and see how it works. I was thinking maybe it's a group of

Christian Brim (14:54.306)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (15:01.292)
Yes.

Amy Barrickman (15:20.07)
10 people and we meet via Skype's going away, one of those services. We meet one of those services. I did.

Christian Brim (15:27.06)
Skype. Did you just say Skype?

How old are you?

Christian Brim (15:36.332)
You don't look old enough to use the word Skype.

Christian Brim (15:41.55)
I'm just saying although you did work for pharmaceutical companies, so you know

Amy Barrickman (15:48.005)
Right. So yeah, no, I am 42 turning 43. I'm certainly familiar with Skype, but yeah, you're right. Oh my gosh, that really does, David. So anyway, I'm. So I hear.

Christian Brim (15:51.074)
Okay, all right. Okay.

Christian Brim (15:57.952)
It gets worse, I promise.

Yeah. Like the jerk. I mentioned the jerk. mean, how many in the audience are even going to know what that is or even Steve Martin? Like, sorry.

Amy Barrickman (16:04.526)
So I'm considering... Right, it's a great movie.

Amy Barrickman (16:13.592)
Well, if there's anyone listening who has not seen The Jerk or doesn't know Steve Martin, this is a gift. This is a gift for you to look up Steve Martin, particularly The Jerk, really any Steve Martin movie. You just opened up a whole world to yourself of humor. So lucky.

Christian Brim (16:19.679)
It is.

Christian Brim (16:29.346)
Did you know that he wrote a book of poetry?

Amy Barrickman (16:33.558)
I did, I haven't read it.

Christian Brim (16:35.662)
cruel shoes.

Amy Barrickman (16:37.518)
I've heard of it. My aunt is a huge Steve Martin fan, she told me about.

Christian Brim (16:38.348)
Yes, yes.

Yeah, it's, it's that that poem in itself is actually hilarious. You need to, you need to go read the poem, curl shoes. Yes, it's. Yes. Well, there's, there's another, this is me being politically incorrect. There's another poem in there called she had the jugs. So pick it up. You'll love it.

Amy Barrickman (16:48.11)
Yeah. I need to get the book because we all need a little more humor in our life.

Amy Barrickman (17:08.61)
I love it.

Christian Brim (17:09.774)
OK, so you've been in interior design how long?

Amy Barrickman (17:14.339)
15 years.

Christian Brim (17:15.47)
Okay. And you, you decided to write this book. So 15 years, you've, you've seen some shit. Um, and you, you, yeah. And, and like, you, you have the chops and you've experienced enough. What, what was the light bulb moment to write the book? Like, I, I'm sure this wasn't just a, a, a, um, impulse thing.

Amy Barrickman (17:24.675)
That's for sure.

Amy Barrickman (17:44.738)
Alright, people have been asking, how long did you work on it? And the answer is anywhere between 14 years and one year. Because I have been, I have had this idea, I've started gathering these thoughts early on. Really, it happened quite quickly because I had some clients I was working with that they'd be like, oh, can you help my sister? Can you go to my mother's house? Can you do this? And next thing I knew, I was really quite overwhelmed.

And I felt like I wasn't able to help anyone really thoroughly because it is in order to do a really good job, you have to know so much about a person. So that's when I thought I just wish I could direct them to something. Just today, my cousin sent me a text message like, am renovating my master bedroom. I'm over my head. And I was like, go to chapter three and you'll see the section about this.

Christian Brim (18:16.846)
Mmm. Yeah.

Christian Brim (18:29.134)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (18:42.368)
And that applies to this part of your situation. yeah, so I've been working on it for a long time, seriously for a year, but before that I had been gathering, I had been putting lists together because there are a lot of checks and balances that I kind of refined over the past 15 years that are really useful to someone who's just a homeowner and wants their space to look great.

Christian Brim (19:05.74)
Yeah. So the, there, there's a time and a financial commitment to writing a book. what, what are your expectations around that? Like you've already invested the time, but you've got to spend time marketing it as well. what are your, what are your, what were your expectations when you decided to write the book and have they changed?

Amy Barrickman (19:30.912)
That's such a good question. Because I think that you do you do I think there are lot of people out there who either have written a book or are or want to write a book and I liken it to having a baby. Because at first you're like so excited this is going to be great and yes I will do all those things I can't wait to market my book that is going to be so much fun.

Christian Brim (19:33.538)
I know, I ask only good questions.

Amy Barrickman (20:01.055)
And then you're, you know, you're pregnant and you're like, oh, this is kind of the pits. Like as I'm writing the book, I'm like, oh, it's up and down. I'm so excited. This is going great. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I doing? Then the editor gets their hands on. You're like, oh, there are only 4,357 edits. Great. So, you know, it's brutal. And then you go through cover design. You're so excited to see. And then you're like, oh, but I want this.

Christian Brim (20:20.822)
The editing process is brutal.

Amy Barrickman (20:30.547)
So anyway, the reason I answer that way is because, yes, I went into this with open eyes knowing it's not just about putting the book out there. It's about getting it out there and letting people know about it. And that's really what my goal is now. But definitely I went in thinking, yeah, this will be so much fun. And now I'm like, wow, okay, I need to stay focused on the marketing part. Like I kind of almost did.

taking a break in a way that I'm just letting things go for a little bit and refocusing my efforts.

Christian Brim (21:06.894)
You said having a baby, I've never had one, so I can't compare that. I would say it's more like raising a child. It is, in the truest sense, some of the best in the world, best in your life, and the worst in your life. As I tell all of the new parents, children ruin your life. And that's true.

Amy Barrickman (21:25.342)
Neat.

Amy Barrickman (21:35.677)
In the best right? It's gone. Gone!

Christian Brim (21:37.238)
because your old life, your old life is done. It's gone. It doesn't exist anymore. But it, you know, I say that tongue in cheek that they don't. Yeah.

Amy Barrickman (21:48.187)
I agree completely and I love my life with kids, but you're right, that other person is gone.

Christian Brim (21:56.098)
Yeah. My, I, I remember when we had our first child, it was the weekend. My wife was somewhere and I decided that I needed to run up to the office. and I was in the car before I realized that my daughter was asleep in her crib. And I'm like, I can't go anywhere. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Barrickman (22:18.609)
I remember that feeling, especially when you're a new mother and you're like, you wake up and for maybe a few minutes if the baby, let's say you're in the hospital and the baby's in the nursery and then you're like, wait, wait, I'm a mom? I have a child? What? That doesn't seem right.

Christian Brim (22:32.812)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember they we get we get discharged from the hospital and they're helping us put the car seat in and we bought the wrong car seat and so it was way too big and we're putting this tiny human in here and and we get in the car and we just had this overwhelming feeling of like now what like wait a second.

Aren't you gonna give us some instructions? Yeah, yeah.

Amy Barrickman (23:02.723)
Right. Like, are you really just gonna let me take this baby and just go?

Christian Brim (23:06.548)
Yeah, yeah, like I don't know what I'm doing.

Amy Barrickman (23:11.514)
And really, writing a book, in so many ways it's the same. The writing was like pregnancy for me. It's like, you're excited, you feel great. You're like, my gosh, what have I done? How am I gonna get to the end of this? And then now, you're right, it's like having this child. People are like, that's so exciting. I'm like, it's really weird. It's really weird. But occasionally, I'll get a message from someone who I don't know.

Because everyone you know, they're like, the book is great. it's awesome. And I'm like, well, you you probably didn't read it. And that's OK. And like, you just love me. Right. And that's fine. But you just love me. So you're going to say that. And occasionally I'll get a message from someone who either I don't know or it's someone that doesn't have to tell me this. Right. Like it was one of my friends. Mothers gave this to her daughter.

Christian Brim (23:39.435)
Yes, yes.

Christian Brim (23:45.004)
My wife still hasn't read mine, so, you know.

Christian Brim (23:52.354)
guess.

Amy Barrickman (24:05.857)
so my friend's sister, but it came through the mother is the point. And she is not someone that I have her cell phone number, but I know who she is. And she texted me and told me how great it was. And I was like, my gosh, this was worth it. Like it really is helping people. And you know, we don't feel that way that much with our kids. Just kidding. We do. My kids are great. I love them. No, but you know, there are a lot of moments where you're like,

Christian Brim (24:30.542)
They are listening.

Amy Barrickman (24:32.397)
Did I do this right? Are they good people? And then they do things and you're like, they are good people. This was worth it.

Christian Brim (24:41.1)
Yeah. I had a similar moment when, when somebody reached out to me, from that. didn't know that had read the book. put my actual email in the book, and a phone number and, I, not my cell phone number. was a separate number. So, but I still get texts and stuff. And, one, one person reached out and I ended up talking to him and,

Amy Barrickman (24:55.631)
wow.

Okay. Right. That's great.

Christian Brim (25:10.638)
the there's a Chapter in the book. It's actually the last chapter of the book. It's called the ham chapter and he was listening on on audio and His daughter was listening in the car and she said what does ham mean and and he's like I don't know if this is age-appropriate share, but I'm gonna go ahead and they said well it stands

for hard as a motherfucker. And she was going to softball practice and she's like, I love that. I'm gonna go ham. I'm like, I'm shaping the minds of America's youth. Thank you.

Amy Barrickman (25:54.551)
Yes. You've really, you're leaving your mark. That is... Same thing we do with our kids. I mean, I said a word the other day that I was like, people don't say that anymore. I probably shouldn't say that in front of my children.

Christian Brim (25:58.644)
Yes, not necessarily a good one, but maybe a skid mark.

Christian Brim (26:12.394)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So back to the back to the interior design business. What 15 years you've seen some shit as I said, what are some of the biggest challenges looking back that you had to overcome and starting a business?

Amy Barrickman (26:13.847)
It was a slip.

Yes.

Amy Barrickman (26:30.496)
Really good question. The biggest challenge. This is true. This is true. So, but that one is better. It's a higher level. Good question on a good question scale. It's even higher than others. And it buys me time to think about all the challenges that I faced. The first one that came to mind was contractors working with contractors.

Christian Brim (26:32.714)
We've already stipulated that I only ask good questions. So you don't have to you don't have to say that anymore.

okay. All right. Okay. All right.

Okay.

Ha ha!

What was the first one that came to mind?

Christian Brim (26:58.582)
Mmm.

Amy Barrickman (26:59.613)
I don't want to scare people off because we already know that it's challenging to work with contractors. But really with that, I would say also is kind of scaling the business. And I don't just mean selling more to more people. In design, you start out, most people do at least, you know, I started out on smaller projects, going in, working with someone by the hour, helping them rearrange a living room or a bedroom.

And then you start working with these people, they like you, you have the trust, and then they want to renovate. And then we're moving walls and then we're building additions and then we're building houses. So the big hiccup for me was always figuring out how to work with these other contractors in a way that benefited the client, but still got, still gave us a really good product. and it's something probably still working through.

Christian Brim (27:54.476)
Yeah.

Well, for those of you that aren't familiar with interior design, it's, it's a strange hybrid. It can be a strange hybrid business model because part of it is a service. And then part of it is, you know, essentially construction management. And those are two very different things. and, and, and two different ways to make money. And it can be.

It can be hard to put those two together.

Amy Barrickman (28:29.043)
Absolutely. And I got into it thinking, okay, I'm, I had to try different business models. So first I'm just going to try to flat fee per room. Well, first project and I couldn't do that because even the most wonderful people who would never want to take advantage of you take so much advantage of your time. I should have. Where were you 15 years ago? So then I thought I'll only charge by the hour. I'll just have an hourly rate, which is still.

Christian Brim (28:38.859)
That won't work.

Christian Brim (28:46.326)
You should have asked me. You should have asked me beforehand. I could have told you that was a bad idea.

Amy Barrickman (28:58.799)
essentially what I do. But as I learned more and got more into the industry, I realized a lot of this business is having access to products that people can't just order online. Now that's changed quite a bit even since I started. But as a designer, you really need to be a wholesaler. Well, that comes with a whole bunch of challenges because now you need a receiver. You need to have someone who's going to deliver the product for you.

Christian Brim (29:19.178)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (29:27.281)
And you're not protected by a big company who will take back your return if it doesn't fit or, you know, if things come up. So that was a whole layer of business I had to unveil. And then getting into the construction. Contractors, at least in my area, probably most people listening can relate. It's a very expensive thing. So I wasn't looking to make money on the construction. I didn't want to. It was already so expensive, but you have to be compensated.

Christian Brim (29:33.175)
Right.

Right.

Christian Brim (29:56.365)
Yes.

Amy Barrickman (29:56.604)
So then I'm charging by the hour and I had to try different models. Like at first a contractor would say, well, hey, I'll give you like 10 % of the thing. Well, I hated that feeling, hated that, even though a lot of designers operate that way. So what I'm trying to say is every business is different. And for creatives, a lot of time we're looking at these different facets. And I don't think anyone could have told me anything without me trying it.

Christian Brim (30:14.956)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (30:25.425)
that I would have really listened to unless I went through it because you know, you're bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. You're like, I'm gonna make it work. I can do it. And then you're like, oh, actually that there's a reason why people do it that way. So.

Christian Brim (30:25.876)
Mm, yeah, yeah.

Christian Brim (30:39.414)
Yes. saw your, I saw your actress chops there. mean, you, you nailed it. I, I'm curious. like, I'm thinking about, contractors and then I'm thinking about architects and the way they bill and, and, you know, like architects typically have a percentage of the contract, you know, they're, one or 2%. have you ever tried to do that?

on the whole thing, like, so they're, they're building or they're renovating and you're so like, just like you're paying the architect 1%, you're going to pay me 1 % or half percent. Have you, have you ever tried that?

Amy Barrickman (31:17.507)
Right. I haven't. And I think it's interesting for an interior designer to try. I think that for the way my business has come up, I'm not doing a lot of like whole house builds. Right. So if you're doing a whole house build, that makes a lot of sense. A full renovation. Here's the other challenge.

Christian Brim (31:32.75)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (31:36.234)
Or even a full renovation. mean, have you tried it that way?

Amy Barrickman (31:43.055)
with design specifically, and maybe architects also face this, but I think less so. What I do is like putting together a puzzle. So we get those first pieces in, but I have no idea what the center of that puzzle looks like in the beginning. I have like, saw the picture a few weeks ago, so it's in my head.

Christian Brim (31:58.946)
You don't have a picture. You don't have the picture on the box.

Christian Brim (32:07.96)
but you don't have it in front of you.

Amy Barrickman (32:09.806)
But I'm not looking at that specific picture. I have an idea. I know it's going to look something like this. But what I'm doing is constantly changing every week that I'm meeting with the client. So while I can put out a budget,

it's really going to fluctuate. People have ideas about how much a sofa should cost, and then they have ideas about how much a rug should cost. And the person who thinks that it's okay to spend a lot on a sofa may not necessarily spend a lot on a rug, or they might think they're going to spend a lot on these things and then come to me and say, look, I just found this one at Pottery Barn. So, and I want to be fine with that. I don't want to have to sell.

a certain amount of product. Which is why I maintain an hourly rate no matter what. If I buy something for someone, they get a big chunk of my discount. I have to keep some to manage my business costs. But at the end of the day, I've gone by hour. And that was at the advice actually, see I do listen to some advice. That was at the advice of some industry professionals kind of early on. They saw this shift happening in design. Formerly designers lived only on selling stuff.

But now with the internet, you can really kind of get anything. So that's how I came to this conclusion. But I think it's interesting. I've been doing less and less of the full projects. I just have a handful of clients I've been working with for most of them 10 years or more. And that's who I stay with. And I haven't really taken on a new job since COVID.

Christian Brim (33:28.588)
Right. Yeah.

Christian Brim (33:42.572)
Nice.

Christian Brim (33:49.004)
Yeah. Pricing is one of those things that fascinates me because it is, it's very nebulous for most things. and there's so many different variables and trying to figure out like, can, how can the business owner extract the most value that the customer or client is willing to pay? And it's not, you know, if you're, if you're selling a product,

Amy Barrickman (34:13.868)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (34:18.158)
It's easier. but even that's not easy. I use the example in the book about water and, how, you know, anybody that says that, well, my, my business is just a commodity. can't, I can't change my pricing. use water as an example, because you go through getting water out of the tap. What that actually costs versus bottle water from Sam's to

Evian, you know, I mean like no, pricing is not, it is an art. is not. There is science behind it, but it is an art for sure. Have you heard of the Pearl Collective?

Amy Barrickman (34:48.96)
Right.

Amy Barrickman (34:58.431)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (35:07.454)
Sounds familiar, but I can't place what it is.

Christian Brim (35:09.832)
I, I enter and I don't, apologize. I don't remember her name. I interviewed her for the book. she's out of Colorado, but she, she runs a collective of interior designers for like the business aspects of it. yeah. So, all right. Sorry. Yeah.

Amy Barrickman (35:24.938)
Really smart. And that's a great avenue for someone who wants to build a design business is, you I don't necessarily recommend doing what I did, which was just kind of going it alone. I tried to be honest, I tried to find designers I could work for. And I did work in like kind of a showroom situation to learn the business. But what I really wanted to was to work under.

Christian Brim (35:47.458)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (35:52.327)
I wanted to work under another designer's umbrella. I wanted to have my own clients, but kind of use their resources and give them a portion of what I made. And I couldn't find that. But what I did was with my own business, I started doing that for other people. So I've had a number of designers who have worked under me and I still work with one where she uses me as her resource and I take a portion of everything she bills. And that's worked out really beautifully.

Christian Brim (36:18.634)
Is there any branding where like she's not acting in your name or she is? Okay.

Amy Barrickman (36:26.468)
Yes, she is. So she is, you know, working under the Berkman Design Group umbrella. And she loves that because, you know, unlike me, where a client's like, can you do this? Or what about this? She can go, I don't know, I'm gonna have to ask. You're have to ask her, which she may or may not actually have to ask me. But, know, it gives you sometimes some protection, whereas obviously, people I work with know, I make the final set.

Christian Brim (36:42.627)
down.

Christian Brim (36:55.872)
Yeah, and I think that's not a bad business model for any creative business where you have some very talented people. They don't necessarily want to work for somebody else. They want to be self-employed and have that flexibility, but they don't really want to build a business. the distinction between that is a business, a business functions without

Amy Barrickman (37:16.328)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (37:24.492)
the owner's involvement. And it took me, 27 years to build that. Shouldn't have, but it did. Like if I don't show up, the wheels keep moving in all aspects. Like that, that can't just be the work. It's gotta be all the marketing and the finances. It's got it. You you've got to have all of those bases covered. but creating a business is hard and,

I made it harder, it yeah.

Amy Barrickman (37:56.902)
We all do. I definitely made it harder than it needed to be.

Christian Brim (38:00.76)
But it's distinct from, want to be a soul opener. I want to be a self-employed, whatever you want to call that. And that's not denigrating those people that choose that path. But I think it's important to know upfront what you want because if you want to build a business, understand it's going to take more time, more money, more blood, sweat and tears.

Amy Barrickman (38:09.094)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Barrickman (38:20.198)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (38:29.77)
It's, it's distinct. has value in and of itself beyond you, beyond you actually showing up and punching the clock.

Amy Barrickman (38:38.82)
Right, and I would say that if you have a burning desire to build a business, absolutely, go for it. But if you don't have a burning desire to build a business, don't, there's no reason to, fine. I know there are so many great opportunities, so many more than when I started 15 years ago, where you can be that solopreneur and you can be creative and profitable, but you don't have to be running a big business.

Christian Brim (39:06.124)
No.

Amy Barrickman (39:06.127)
So, you I think that's such great advice that you're giving is know what you're getting into and know, decide. Do you want to be the person who runs the business? If you do, go for it. But if you're not sure, then find your other opportunities.

Christian Brim (39:20.406)
Yeah. And, and I can, I have said this many times, the business reached a point where it was limited by my, by me. Like every business reaches the potential, or, or is going to, is going to stall out at the level of the owner. and for me, making the decision to grow myself.

to be able to grow the business beyond where it was, which actually initially meant shrinking it, but that's a different story. but I knew that I had to step backwards before I could go further forwards. That was harder than starting the business. And, and, you know, I, I often kind of wonder, maybe I shouldn't have done that journey. I,

Amy Barrickman (40:06.712)
Interesting. Yeah.

Christian Brim (40:17.918)
I'm glad for the opportunity and I'm glad for where I ended up, but it was, was fucking hard. and that's yeah, kind of like you were talking about with the book, you know, it's easy to get, caught up in the euphoria of something new and, that's all fun and games, but then you got to go do the work.

Amy Barrickman (40:39.011)
Right. Of course I will do that. I can't wait. I'm so excited. And then reality hits you. But it's still good. It doesn't mean that you lose that drive. It just there is a point of, you know, you get tired. And I've recently been just trying to be like, you know what? That's OK. I'm not on. I don't need to be breaking

Christian Brim (40:45.24)
Yeah, yeah. Famous last words.

Christian Brim (40:53.454)
channel.

Amy Barrickman (41:08.404)
whatever goal every day. It's okay to have a week where I'm kind of taking a backseat and that makes me better when I get back to it.

Christian Brim (41:19.384)
Well, if you, if you haven't listened to the episode with Melinda Jackson, she's PR professional, go back and listen to that. She's younger than you and I, but she's already figured that out. She's like, I'm not going to let other people define my success. Like I, I, I'm not. Yeah. And, and, and it's not nefarious. It's not like people are trying to manipulate you with their, their expectations, but

Amy Barrickman (41:25.141)
I haven't listened to that one.

Amy Barrickman (41:36.45)
Of that.

Christian Brim (41:46.19)
It's real easy to get caught up into doing something for somebody else or because you think that you have to, right? Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. I'm going to give you a resource and I'll connect you afterwards. Joshua Schwartz with Pub Vendo is an agency that exclusively works with authors.

Amy Barrickman (41:51.554)
And especially when you have clients.

Amy Barrickman (42:05.356)
Please do.

Christian Brim (42:15.342)
and promoting their books and I've used him and been pleased with the results so shout out to what yes Josh didn't have an interview I don't think I don't think I interviewed him yeah yes okay how do we find how do how do we how do we find your book I mean Amazon yeah but do you do you have a website do you where do you want to set this

Amy Barrickman (42:16.309)
soon.

Amy Barrickman (42:22.498)
Joshua Schwartz and Melinda Jackson. See you soon.

I know, I just am writing these things down. For everyone out there listening, sorry for the delay.

Amy Barrickman (42:40.435)
Yes. Yes. Well, two things. First of all, I have a website. you go to www.lrdesignformula.com. So LR for living room. www. Do I even need to say that? No. LRdesignformula.com. So that will be there. But also one of the resources that I'm providing to listeners is

Christian Brim (42:58.22)
No, we're going to put the links in the show notes.

Amy Barrickman (43:09.935)
a free, it's really a taste of the book, it's how to create a gallery wall in your home. So it's an instant PDF that you can download if you go to www.gallerywalltips.com, gallerywalltips.com, you can download this PDF instantly and that will give you all the instructions to create a beautiful gallery wall. We all kind of have that lonely wall somewhere in our home that just needs some love.

Christian Brim (43:21.507)
Hmm?

Amy Barrickman (43:37.967)
And a gallery wall is something that a designer usually will put together to showcase. It can be photos, it can be artwork, it can be a number of things. But I give you all the tips, frame sizes, frame recommendations, all those things based on your measurements are in this gallerywalltips.com. And also I am on YouTube and Instagram and TikTok at Barrickman Design. And my last name is

quite unfortunately spelled with many letters, which is B-A-R-R. Well, I'm married, so actually my maiden name was probably worse. But still, why didn't I marry someone with last name of like Ford or Smith or, you know, but that handle may not have been available then. So, Baruchman Design, B-A-R-R-I-C-K-M-A-N Design.

Christian Brim (44:10.734)
That was hard as a kindergartner. Well, no, you're married, so you didn't have that name.

Christian Brim (44:22.68)
Yeah, because you didn't love them.

Christian Brim (44:31.81)
Well, I don't have that problem. My daughter, I will also recommend her episode. I interviewed her, Mackenzie Brim. She's a figurative oil painter. And so I have a ton of her stuff in my house and so I don't have any blank walls. No, but I will download the PDF to make sure that they are displayed appropriately.

Amy Barrickman (44:43.549)
Cool.

Amy Barrickman (44:49.639)
You don't have any blind calls. But.

Amy Barrickman (44:55.505)
Well, that's the thing is it will give you the framework for how to make, to really honor her artwork because, and I, I'm sure your home is lovely. I'm not making a statement about it, but I noticed sometimes people kind of just like splatter art all around. I would like to honor her artwork. She should have a gorgeous collection all on one wall. makes a dramatic design effect and it's great to really

bring all the colors and depth of her work into one area. So download it.

Christian Brim (45:31.018)
I will download it and thank you for the resources. Listeners will have all of those links in our show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, shoot us a message, let us know what you wanna hear and we'll replace Amy. Until then, ta-ta for now.

Amy Barrickman (45:34.461)
Start.

Amy Barrickman (45:53.858)
Knew that was coming.