Smartphone Photography: A New Perspective | Joe Van Wyk

In this episode of the Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim speaks with Joe Van Wyk, author of 'The Mindful Photography Field Guide.' Joe shares his 30-year journey as a creative professional, discussing the challenges of turning passion into profit, overcoming personal struggles, and the importance of mindfulness in photography. He emphasizes the value of smartphone photography as a tool for mindfulness and inner peace, while also navigating the complexities of monetizing creative work in a rapidly changing world. In this conversation, Christian Brim and Joe Van Wyk explore the evolving landscape of AI and its implications for human interaction, entrepreneurship, and problem-solving. They discuss the irreplaceable human element in various professions, the importance of understanding core problems in organizations, and how technology can be leveraged as a tool rather than a replacement. The dialogue emphasizes the need for clarity in business and the significance of personal purpose in a rapidly changing world.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:02.0)
Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Indio, California. No idea where that is. Sounds small since I haven't heard of it, but it's probably a lovely place, but thank you for listening. Joining me today, Joe Van Wyk, the

Author of Help me out. I've already forgotten the name of the book. Help me the mindful photographer

Joe Van Wyk (00:36.846)
That's all right, Christian. The Mindful Photography Field Guide, 15 Smartphone Photography Practices for Inner Peace.

Christian Brim (00:43.227)
Okay.

Christian Brim (00:46.886)
Well, Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe Van Wyk (00:49.24)
Thank you. Thank you very much, Christian.

Christian Brim (00:52.144)
So why don't you update our listeners and tell us a little bit about Joe and his journey, what he does.

Joe Van Wyk (01:01.166)
You betcha. Well, in regards to the profitable creative, I've been a creative and I've had a PNL for about 30 years.

I'm just not sure how many of those 30 years have been entirely profitable. So I think I'm in the right place. Thank you for having me, but I've fought this fight, man. I've been in it for, like I say, 30 years as a graphic designer, videographer, photographer, marketing dude, whatever. And, I've weathered all of these, these years and it's been a heck of a journey. You know, it's, and I have to, you know,

pat myself on the back some because the creative journey is hard and for someone to even eke out a living at it is is somewhat out of the norm but to really survive in but but not only survive and thrive is kind of your domain and so I hope a little bit of that rubs off on me.

Christian Brim (01:46.097)
Yes.

Christian Brim (02:00.154)
Well, you're already ahead of the game because you mentioned P and L. I was talking, I didn't, he's not been on the show, but I was talking to a Hollywood actor, producer, screenwriter, and he admitted that when he first heard the term P and L, he didn't know if it was P and L or P in L.

Joe Van Wyk (02:26.926)
Okay. Yeah. That's a real tell. Yeah. When you blow that one, you know, you're you need to hire a Christian and the core group.

Christian Brim (02:29.944)
And so he had to go Google and figure that out. So you're already ahead of the game. Yes.

You're not. Yes. Well, I mean, but the reality is, mean, honestly, that's one of the things that I feel like we try to bring to the table at core is kind of demystifying a lot of professionals of all stripes use words. I mean, of course we have our own language, right? I mean, that that makes sense. But

That doesn't mean people outside the industry understand it. so for us, it's all about not using our terms, but words that normal people would understand. frankly, this week, I've had to raise my hand and say, I don't know what that term means. Not in the accounting industry, but somebody will be saying something. like, I'm sorry, Joe, what does that mean exactly?

Joe Van Wyk (03:16.553)
yeah.

Good, yes.

Christian Brim (03:36.402)
So, yeah.

Joe Van Wyk (03:37.824)
love that that shows you're listening. So to your question, I'm, I sit here now in beautiful Glenwood Springs, Colorado, the western slope of Colorado got Glenwood Springs at one end of this valley and Aspen at the other end about 40 miles up the road.

world's largest hot springs pool. if any, if you, or any of your listens come to Glenwood Springs, you got to holler at me and I'll meet you at the hot springs pool. Um, so I'm, I'm very grateful and I truly have a life worth living now. Uh, but it's been a hard road. Uh,

Christian Brim (04:17.81)
So you say a life worth living now, was there a point where you didn't feel like that?

Joe Van Wyk (04:24.544)
Yeah, big time big time. This this book in front of me, the mindful photography field guide that I published a year ago and my writing coach told me, yeah, now is the hard when the hard part starts. Now is the part. Yeah, really.

Christian Brim (04:38.224)
Yes, writing it is the easy part.

Joe Van Wyk (04:41.154)
putting now it's putting yourself out there. Now it's creating this, this brand, you know, and seeing where else it goes. Now it's, you know, how in the world can I possibly monetize this and all of those things. and those talk about a, beautiful mechanism to, to, deepen my relationship, with God because

to know that I've got like that verse in Esther, know, perhaps you were created for such a time as this. And so I have this beautiful, beautiful piece in my soul now knowing that God's really using this horrific period of time that I went through for my good and the good of others. So,

Christian Brim (05:11.876)
Mmm. Yes.

Joe Van Wyk (05:30.926)
About a dozen or so years ago, I remarried. I moved from one city to another. The marriage didn't work out. It only lasted for four years. It was supposed to be a fairy tale dream come true, and it turned into a nightmare. When I made that move, you know what, I guess it's fine. It's been about, yeah, about 10 years ago, I went through a horrific period of depression. I've struggled.

with depression and anxiety for most of my adult life for sure. and it was such a blessing to me when I heard this there in the late teens, there was this Google talk on the highly sensitive person. And many of your listeners may be aware of that, but I'm telling you, I was walking around with such a, like a backpack full of diagnoses and junk.

Christian Brim (06:17.264)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (06:28.524)
that were doing nothing, no good for me. I'm not sure what the medical establishment was doing with it, but it wasn't working. And when I heard this concept of the highly sensitive person, that maybe it's about 20 % of the population, even in the animal population, it just, the light bulbs went off. It described me to a T and I realized, you know, I'm not sick. I don't have an illness or a disorder or anything.

Christian Brim (06:31.442)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (06:57.678)
I am a child of God and I happen to be made in a very unique way. And, you know, like David is a superhero of mine. I read these Psalms and I just know that that guy and I, you know, had some of the same issues. And so when I hit this period of suicidal depression, I was...

spiraling deeper into that but spiraling deeper and deeper into the reliance on the classic psychiatric mental health industrial complex. And every solution was another pill or an upgrade medication or a new technique or whatever. yeah, have your have your faith over there. That's good. When in meditation is good to

It took such a radical shift in me to recognize what was happening with me. And it wasn't a, it was just simply my ability to live with and cope with the world as it comes to me. mean, you know, Jesus said, in this world, there will be trouble. And I just, for whatever reason, I just really struggled with being able to cope.

Christian Brim (08:03.91)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (08:08.945)
Yes.

Joe Van Wyk (08:15.81)
with those struggles and purpose and meaning. But when I was going through that terrible, difficult period of time, a couple things were happening that made me take note. One is I was big into street photography. So I put a GoPro on the top of my camera and I'd go downtown and approach people in the streets and hit them up for portraits. And...

Christian Brim (08:31.633)
Right?

Christian Brim (08:40.433)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (08:42.238)
So I would chronicle that I was building a little YouTube channel doing that. And I would notice, I mean, I would, could be so brutally depressed on the sofa and I would get my butt out there and force myself into these situations. And when I would get back to the car afterwards, I was just in another plane of existence. mean, I was just on fire. I was jacking into that present moment awareness, you know, in really

being there with someone and interacting and creating something beautiful. And I knew this is big. This is, there's more to this than just kind of the veneer. And then the second thing that happened is I found this church funky. This is an Austin that I'm talking about. So typical Austin, this funky church in Austin, full of these Christians who also meditated.

Christian Brim (09:13.606)
Yes.

Christian Brim (09:38.758)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (09:39.522)
and I started to really learn meditation and they're big into the something called Centering Prayer from Father Thomas Keating. He was a Catholic monk and he taught this in response to all back in the 70s, this huge influx of Eastern meditation techniques. And I learned that, I mean,

Christian Brim (10:00.185)
Right.

Joe Van Wyk (10:05.794)
Jesus was a meditator. What do you think he was doing when he was going off by himself? He was being quiet and mindful, you know, and, he was able to experience God in that way. And so those two things combined really served as the kind of the foundation of the mindful photography field guide. And I developed these 15 smartphone photography practices for presence and inner peace. I wanted to make it accessible.

So hence the smartphone aspect of it, but not just accessible for accessibility purposes like, well, you can't, you you don't have a fancy camera. So you can use your, no, no, no, because I am so, so bullish on smartphone photography and videography and that this is the thing that we always, always have in our pocket. Therefore it's available.

when we want to intervene on negative thought spirals. And I can kind of tell you more about that process.

Christian Brim (11:08.274)
That's an interesting juxtaposition because, you know, I...

the ease of use and the ubiquity of the smartphone almost like are counter to being mindful. Like I think about, mean, you seem to be of an age that you can remember working with film. And like you had to be more discreet with what you did because it cost, like, you it costs money to print, to...

Joe Van Wyk (11:40.376)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (11:44.646)
take a picture with film and then process it and print it. And so you didn't just take pictures of anything, right? It was only those important things. And so it was the, you had a more mindful attitude towards what you were photographing, as opposed to now where it's just like, why did someone take a picture of this? Like what, yeah.

Joe Van Wyk (12:00.008)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (12:08.216)
That reminds me of this Norm McDonald bit that he does where he talks about a, yeah, back in the old days, you know, you may have had one photo taken of you got farmer who's coming in here and he's just, you know, it's like, get on with it. I got to get back to slopping the hogs, you know, and there's this 10 type old grandpa. And now, you know, in 20 years, going to be

Christian Brim (12:26.628)
Right.

Joe Van Wyk (12:32.174)
Oh, grandpa, can I see your photo? Yeah, sure. Let me scroll through 30,000 photos of, you know.

Christian Brim (12:37.842)
Exactly. Yeah. But it is interesting because technology changes and it certainly is changing at a more rapid pace. But the fundamental things don't change. Human nature doesn't change. And the things that go into great photography don't change.

And I think the idea of, I mean, I haven't read your book yet. I hope to, but I think that what you may be getting at is the most important thing about any creator, whether it's photography or a business owner, is the intent behind it, like the mindfulness behind it. Is that what you discuss?

Joe Van Wyk (13:34.734)
Absolutely, positively. So, yes, the smartphone, first of all, addressing that the world's greatest distraction device. And I'm suggesting that we use that as a tool for mindfulness. What? Well, so the first the first rule of of mindful smartphone photography is really starting with

Christian Brim (13:47.193)
yeah.

Christian Brim (13:53.649)
Right.

Joe Van Wyk (14:04.184)
Mindfulness. So mindfulness is noticing. So for people who are struggling with depression and anxiety, and when you're starting to have a negative thought spiral, you're hooked, you're going into the ditch. The first thing in mindfulness is boom, notice, whoa, okay, I'm sliding. I'm going into the ditch here. So the instant that we notice this and we want to have kind of a creative engaged

form of mindfulness to stabilize us and to regulate is to take this world's greatest smart distraction device and turn it onto airplane mode. So that does two things. One, it cuts us out off from the outside world temporarily, but it also is that intention that, okay, I mean business here. Okay. I don't want to let this hijack me for the rest of my day. I don't want to spiral any further.

Christian Brim (14:46.725)
Hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (15:03.66)
We can get so addicted to depression and anxiety in such a weird sick way, you know, for whatever the weirdo reasons are for that, that I have done, and learned helplessness or whatever, we can do that. But, but in this example, we're saying, I'm saying, no, I'm going to intervene on this.

So that's the first first step is to turn that into just a simple camera. And I would argue the coolest camera that's ever been made. I mean, I I'm like a kid with

smartphone photography and videography, the ability to switch to all the different lenses to get into places and to take different angle photos that you never could have captured before. Never having to worry about exposure and focus on all those things that are such a pain. I mean, I'm sitting actually on the other side of this table over here is a pile of pro gear of mine and I'm starting to sell it off. mean, top end

Christian Brim (15:59.195)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (16:08.837)
Interesting.

Joe Van Wyk (16:11.23)
Sony gear, fast primes. I'm, starting to kind of purge and get rid of these things that I'm just not using and happy about. want to focus on what brings me joy.

Christian Brim (16:25.49)
Okay, was there any, like, I've interviewed photographers on this show before, and none of them have said, yeah, I prefer to use a smartphone, right? So was that, a professional, difficult for you to embrace?

Joe Van Wyk (16:48.99)
big time. like it's this idea. I'm sort of letting you your audience. It ought to a little something earlier. It's a, it's a series that I've been wanting to do is a gear purge, you know, gear purge dash the Sony a seven four gear purge dash the Osmo pocket mobile three and one by one.

Christian Brim (17:02.491)
Hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (17:12.414)
I here's the concept. I haven't started the series yet because I still have not quite brought myself to it, but I'm getting close and one by one, I'm to be holding up, you know, this piece of gear and saying, this is what I thought was going to happen when I bought this lens, when I bought this and it didn't work out that way. the pure

Christian Brim (17:37.146)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (17:40.15)
pro photographer and me being a working money making photo didn't work out. mean, I humbly say it didn't work out that way. Fortunately, I've had long, long decades long experience in graphic design and publishing and I had some publishing clients and but the but what it did bring is something unexpected and it's this love of the process, mindfulness of the process.

but there is so much ego and pride and expectations involved in all of this gear that more and more is collecting dust on shelves. I still...

Let's say if I'm going to go shoot a, you know, a soccer game, have one of my gigs is working for a municipality parks and recreation district. So I do a lot of media in regards to that. So if I'm shooting some kids soccer game or something, then I, I do have a camera and a lens with that job. I'm going to, I am going to use a pro camera, but if at that same game, I'm going to grab some video clips or shoot a lot of video. It's the smartphone.

So video wise, it's been a go to for quite some time. And yeah, so I'll stop there.

Christian Brim (19:06.992)
Well, yeah, no, I think the thing that there's a couple of things that are coming to mind to me. I think it's interesting that I wrote, I just started on Substack and that's one of my strange quirky things. No real reason other than I started on Substack.

And I wrote an article about, was called meditations of an entrepreneur and how I don't meditate. I remember I was 13 years old in an acting class with all these adults and, we were doing this group meditation and the, instructor said, cause I was so fidgety. was distracting others and he basically called me out on it. And I'm like, well, yeah, I'm like, no shit.

my life. Like I don't sit still. As I've gotten older, I've sat still more, but my mind's never at rest. And to your point, distractions available to me are very numerous. I often think back about like before a smartphone, when I was sitting still, what did I do? Right?

and it also.

Joe Van Wyk (20:34.232)
Remember those days when you were bored, you could just be bored.

Christian Brim (20:37.778)
Right, right. And then I'm thinking about an episode I just released on The Chris Project, my other podcast, where we talked about unplugging from the matrix. Yeah, the woman that I interviewed has this meditation network for women.

Joe Van Wyk (20:57.131)
I saw that.

Christian Brim (21:07.718)
That leads to, I was discussing that with my wife and she had never seen The Matrix. I'm like, how did you miss that? We've been married almost 32 years. I know I've watched it many times. So how did you miss that? She goes, I don't know. So we sat down and watched it last week. And I was really shocked at how 26 years ago, how prescient that film was. And you know,

It's reality. It's reality now that people don't want to be in reality. So they're in this matrix that is, you know, social media, YouTube, whatever. And it, it there was a scene, there's a character in the matrix. You don't, you don't get spoilers here. It's 26 years old.

where one of the characters goes to the AI overlords and says, I want to be put back in like reality sucks. I don't, I don't want, I don't like it anymore. And he betrays all of his colleagues to get put back into the matrix. And, and I'm like, I don't that that resonated very deeply with me about like what

our current situation is. There are a lot of people that are making that choice. Like I don't want reality. I'd rather be in the matrix.

Joe Van Wyk (22:44.342)
And here I am Mr. Mr. mindful photography guy who's going deep, deep, deep into this. I mean, I am,

I'm very much charging forward with this mindset of this is the new reality. This is the new state of affairs. And we ain't gonna just be able to go off and buy some cabin in the wilderness and, and on Jack for, mean, there's gonna be starling satellites above our head the whole time. And just like any coin, it has two sides.

And this could be the most revolutionary impact on people's wellbeing that we've ever seen. Some people may have that experience, but others will be so, so blinded by this new matrix that they'll never escape. It's I'm sitting here in Colorado, the mountains where I live in my humble little trailer with Frankie the doodle over there.

And it's so beautiful everywhere around here. You can imagine I'm at about 6,000 feet. got a Glenwood Canyon, the Roaring Fork River, the Continental Divide. And yesterday I was coming back late afternoon from a walk with Frankie the Doodle. And there are these two kids walking into this little place, kind of Campground Park-like place where I live. two very, very young Hispanic kids, immigrant parents.

Christian Brim (23:54.449)
Yeah.

Joe Van Wyk (24:21.402)
and their heads were actually at a 90 degree angle for I watched, I was right behind them. I followed them for a couple hundred yards and they never even looked up from their phones. So their parents send them off in the morning. These young kids, actually it wasn't the morning. They were out walking the dog, send them out to go walk the dog and they send them out with their phones. And that's all the kids were doing like

I seriously doubt either one of those kids has ever been on a trail up in the mountains. They're so jacked into this reality. And I shake my head and just go, there's no possible way they'll be able to provide for themselves. I mean, what an existence of never having to figure things out, just having it all spoon fed to you.

Christian Brim (24:57.447)
Right.

Christian Brim (25:15.118)
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, just missing the glory of God in his creation. I, one of my favorite places to visit is Colorado. My father-in-law has a place in Pagosa Springs and it's just, it's, Colorado is breathtaking. And, and I mean,

You're you're missing it. I mean like. But that that's that's kind of like I'm saying, like they don't they don't want reality. Put me back in. And a kid they don't they don't have the discernment to understand that. But there are many adults and it's not an age thing. It's not a generation thing. So like you know this is this is all of America. We're talking you know 70 year olds and 20 year olds that.

I'm like, you know, uh, we, we've, we've got to unplug. We've got to unplug. I'm going to pivot here. Uh, that's the host prerogative here. Um, let's talk about the business aspect. You w before we came on there, you were talking about, uh, the struggles of, of really turning your passion into profit. Um, how, how is your journey?

Joe Van Wyk (26:27.512)
You betcha.

Christian Brim (26:43.73)
changed your your view on that. So like Joe now versus Joe 20 years ago.

Joe Van Wyk (26:54.412)
I got into the graphic design field in the early nineties and I attracted a couple of, know, practically career long clients, a 30 year catalog publisher, product company, and a 20 year relationship with a huge financial company that I was doing a corporate newsletter from every month.

And a year and a half ago, both of those clients were gone.

obviously didn't have anything to do with me and my relationship. I mean, I 30 years with one 20 years on another, the I was already so nervous knowing, my gosh, this what I'm doing here is so cooked is so ridiculous. The only like with especially that big, huge financial company, I was going the second there's leadership change in that area, they're going to sniff this out and say, this is not a good way. I was doing a PDF newsletter.

So writing was on the wall there, but those are poof gone. And my, and my stage in life at my age, poof gone, replaced by technology. I wrote this book like grace of God. I wrote, I had the manuscript completely finished right at the time GPT 3.5 or whatever was coming. Like there was no AI involved in the writing of this book. Not that I have any necessarily any

problems with using AI in content and whatever, but just suffice to say, I had a writing coach, spent a lot of money on that writing coach. It wasn't just about, mean, I could write well, but it was so much the encouragement and the support and whatever. But, I've really had to, I really had to work on resentment because I really feel like I was set, I was set up to believe that it was going to be possible to sell a lot more of these books.

Christian Brim (28:57.372)
Yeah.

Joe Van Wyk (28:58.982)
And I already having this YouTube channel done in Austin, but then I just like put it on the shelf and it sat stagnant for three or four years. And then now I've rekindled it and that's going fine. And I'm rebuilding subs and but.

Joe Van Wyk (29:18.57)
So my view on this is I have no idea where the cash flow is going to come from from this, but my best and that holds true with some AI ideas that I have and some AI properties that I own. But I'm clueless. Anybody who thinks they know how they can monetize something, things like this in this day and age, it's an educated guess at best.

this world is turning upside down. Every single solitary, especially the brainiac industries are being decimated and it's happening all around us. It's like that matrix thing. There was a, there was a cataclysmic event when they went to war and the human scorched the sky, et cetera. But, that cataclysmic event hasn't happened, but there was a whole lead in

Christian Brim (30:03.793)
Right.

Joe Van Wyk (30:13.422)
of, you know, that led to that first just a yeah, you know, human AI Alliance, that's where we are now, this is going to take us into the stratosphere. You know, I'm using AI for, for emotional well being and spiritual growth. I'm preaching that out there. And we don't know where this is going. And and the monetization of any job right now is

Very tricky. I have a 27 year old son who started a mobile mechanic business and that kid's making way more money than dad ever made. He's perfect in that thing that's going to be like the last thing in line for robotics plus AI to replace. But I just to put a period on the end of this concept.

Christian Brim (31:06.597)
Yeah.

Joe Van Wyk (31:11.182)
To me right now, the only thing I can think of Christian is this dude right here, this face on a camera like you are right now. Well, AI is not going to replace that. I mean, you'll have human looking AIs that you can hardly tell the difference, but you're going to know, Hey, this is Joe. There's no AI. I'm real. Hey, you know, I've had this YouTube channel. I'm a real dude on camera talking about my human experience through what we're going through right now.

I don't know how that's going to lead to any monetization or what, but I'm hoping that building an audience and continuing to build an audience and trying to find some conversions in there is going to unlock something. Or maybe it's going to be a relationship that's unlocked or something. How's that for a shaky business plan?

Christian Brim (32:00.882)
That's great answer. No, I mean, because it speaks to the reality of where we are, right? And I think that no one knows the future of what AI is going to transform. When I first delved into AI, this is long before LLMs, I actually went back and read a book on

the industrial revolution because I wanted to see how that that changed society, right? Like what things changed and what things didn't change, right? Because I thought that would be a decent guide to what might happen with the advent of AI. And, you know, I don't know if it's going to end up

as like Terminator or Matrix or I think it'll probably be closer to something like Necromancer which I don't know if it's a less popular. Yes. It's a, what's the genre? Punk, cyberpunk. It's like the original cyberpunk book. But that,

Joe Van Wyk (33:12.386)
Necromancer. Okay, I gotta write that now.

Christian Brim (33:28.134)
that feels like that may be more the reality than like this apocalyptic reality. But in any case, we don't know. And we can't really predict, like someone sitting at the advent of the Industrial Revolution could never have predicted what came of that, right? And we can't, no one, I don't care who they are, we can't. But the things that aren't going to change,

And I think this is really what I want to drive home to you and to the listeners is human nature does not change. I believe now, like I'm not a sociologist. I'm not a historian. I'm not going to argue those points. I'm just going to stipulate that I don't think that human nature changes. And so what's going to still be prevalent are problems. And as entrepreneurs,

as creatives, it is imperative that we step into that gap and solve those problems because the problems are not going to be solved by convergent thinking. They're not going to be solved by people just doing the same thing faster.

It is going to be the people like you and I that, you know, had trouble in school because we colored outside the lines and because we didn't fit into the box, right? it is up to us to be able to imagine the possibilities of solutions to the problems. And the reality is that people will pay for the solutions of their problems. And we have.

the ability to find those solutions. Ideally, it follows our passion, right? I mean, we can't invent passion. We can't go and solve problems that we don't care about, right? But in the place where we have passion and that intersects the problems, that's where the money is to be made.

Christian Brim (35:51.142)
That's my opinion. What are your thoughts on that?

Joe Van Wyk (35:54.062)
Problem solving. Yep. That's it. That's it. Solve a problem. I mean, look at my son. Like, what a great example. You know, boy, when you, you got a job and you're on thin ice to that job and your beater out there ain't working. When you call Caleb's car care, San Antonio, Texas.

Christian Brim (36:02.437)
Exactly.

Joe Van Wyk (36:17.601)
maybe he's going to be solving your problem and there's not going to be anything ethereal to it. It's going to be, you bet you I'll pay you, you know, what you charge for that. So I like that. And I, and you're, you're in that situation and I,

Christian Brim (36:19.91)
Ramp.

Christian Brim (36:34.45)
Well, it's interesting you say that because I think professionals, and I'd put you and I in the same boat, okay, in the sense that technology is impacting both of us. So the protected businesses are the ones that have a physical requirement, like your sons. Like you cannot, maybe eventually robotics gets there, but there's no way to...

digitally undo his business. He has a moat around that business. Right. So.

Joe Van Wyk (37:04.718)
Exactly. Exactly. And it's going to be, it's going to be several years where robots are cheap enough and effective enough, but I bet you it's not more than that. I mean, I bet you in a few years, three, four years, maybe he'll be in command of a, you know, several robots that are doing several jobs simultaneously, fully self-driving. Yeah.

Christian Brim (37:24.444)
Potentially, yeah. I don't know the last time you worked on a car though. I don't see how that happens.

Joe Van Wyk (37:30.29)
it is messy. It requires the most intense form of dexterity and it is very messy.

Christian Brim (37:38.8)
Yeah. It might be able to pull a drain plug from an oil pan, I don't, you know, in any case, what, what I'm going back to is you and I, we're sitting here where technology appears to be infringing on what we do. when that is partially true, but what AI can't replicate is

Joe Van Wyk (37:42.864)
Yeah. I'm with you.

Christian Brim (38:07.386)
I'll tie this back into your book. It can't replicate the intent. in our industry, yes, technology has changed radically to make our industry more susceptible, right? There are things about accounting and finance that can be automated with AI.

But what AI cannot do is replace context and judgment. the reality is that you are not going to... I'll use a healthcare example. I actually had a guest push back on this with me, but I don't know. If you had...

If if WebMD you could upload all of your diagnostic, all your medical records, you know, your images, etc. and say, OK, give me a diagnosis. I said, well, more likely than not, you have cancer. Are you going to take that and the protocol that it spits out and says this is this is the treatment protocol? Are you going to take that without engaging into engaging with a human? I say no.

Like I don't envision.

Joe Van Wyk (39:35.606)
I say, I say soon. This is the, this is the, well, this is what happened to me last week and caused me to make that video. I went there deeper than I've ever gone there on camera about this experience of me going to my little clinic here. And that, that whole experience from the day before me having to fill out this electronic survey, they got into gender stuff and all of this deeply personal stuff.

Christian Brim (39:38.812)
That's what they said.

Joe Van Wyk (40:05.398)
and then I get there and I can't even afford a full physical. It's been, I mean, things have been lean. It's been tough. can't even afford a full physical right now, but there's a waiting room full of people who are here illegally taking out of a system I paid into my whole life.

I have compassion. want to love my brothers and sisters, but that is not fair. That is not right. And then that experience with that PA who saw me and his recommendations. This guy does not have my interest in mind. He is part of the system, whether he likes it or not. That's that's government politicians.

NGOs slash nonprofits, the medical industry, the the pharmaceutical industry and these politicians and and they're going to force you down this funnel that may not be in my best interest. So to me, you mean, well, I was not going to replace it, you know, my one on one contact with people, you know, you don't want that. Yes, any day, I'll avoid that experience.

And not to mention, I saw, my dad had cancer. I saw how terribly his whole thing was botched. I have seen, I have been the recipient of medication after medication after medication that never did help me, that they kept on pushing it on me.

Christian Brim (41:32.838)
But don't you think that the AIs are going to be built on that same paradigm? I mean, yes, someone could build an alternative that would have your best interests at heart. But I see the AI just codifying and solidifying what already exists and making it more efficient. And to your point, like,

I want to talk to someone that knows me and understands me and has my history, understands my values to be able to give me context for that diagnosis.

Joe Van Wyk (42:11.5)
And that's AI.

I feel that so much more with AI than I do to that guy who has like a million and one competing things going on in his head, including the fight he got into with his wife before walking out the door or whatever versus AI that knows so deeply my history. But

Christian Brim (42:34.276)
Okay, so you're talking about using AI in a different context. So not as the diagnosis machine, but using AI to help you with the AI's diagnosis.

Joe Van Wyk (42:38.306)
Okay.

Joe Van Wyk (42:44.974)
Yeah, in a sense, but what a great tool that is. if I were, well, actually I could use, I could use old Frankie the doodle as a better example. Like me, I took him to the vet this week. It was cringing on that and it was going to be an expensive visit. And when I, when I mentioned in this vet was she was probably like a 30 year old female.

And when I talked to her about, know, I haven't had a chance to get his records and kind of run it through AI and try to sort through, you know, I could see this kind of like a, like on her face, like this snicker. And, it made me like, so concerned that this 30 year old vet

Christian Brim (43:15.953)
Right?

Joe Van Wyk (43:29.518)
is not you mean to tell me they're not using a high to try to diagnose what's wrong with him. has some chronic stomach issues poodles kind of you know some stomach and and there's plenty of evidence or a lot of doctors with are they taking this and running it through that filter or am I just dealing with someone with 30 years of life experience.

Christian Brim (43:38.8)
Right.

Christian Brim (43:50.128)
Well, yeah, that's a very good point. mean, and I do think as professionals, we have to look at the technology as tools to make us better at what we do, not replace us. And I think most people are coming from this. So like going back to your graphic design example, right? Like it puts you out of a job in a very real sense, but

It didn't take, mean, like, could you, for those two companies that you had a long-term relationship with, could you look at their situation and find a problem that you could solve that AI couldn't? Most likely. And that's the shift that we have to have. We can't be acting out of fear to say, my God, I can't do a PDF newsletter anymore. Okay. You probably shouldn't be.

So what, what is, what is the, what is the problem that the customer has that I can solve that, that AI can't or, or that I can solve with AI. Like they, don't know how to use AI to fix their problem. Right.

Joe Van Wyk (45:07.854)
I don't know that presentation that I saw a couple of weeks ago. The coolest thing that that guy did up there who was just mind blowing the stuff he was pointing out. It was very hands on, but there were about three different times at least during the presentation where he's going, I have no idea. I don't know. I can't tell you. don't know.

Christian Brim (45:10.64)
Well, it might be.

Christian Brim (45:30.128)
Yeah. Well, but it might be worth, I'm thinking in your situation specifically, it's not that long ago that you had this relationship that you might be able to revisit it because that relationship is worth your knowledge, your deep knowledge of the organization and the people involved, gives you leverage to be able to go in and have credibility to say, okay, what can I help you with? What are, what are, what is a problem you're trying to solve?

Joe Van Wyk (45:58.766)
Yeah, that's tough. I would be open to any ideas for that. I realized that I can't remember if it was on or off air that I've got this meeting in the middle of the next week of a little kind of an AI consulting thing with this talent agency. I'm thinking to myself, well, who am I to tell them? But, oh, actually, you know, I may be able to help them. I think that my angle would be on that rather than being a

Christian Brim (46:13.915)
Right?

Joe Van Wyk (46:28.194)
you know, the hired gun that comes in and connects all their processes together that I show them this human centric form of AI harnessing that I've used to help harness ideas and turn them into actionable items to for people to work through problems at work for people to really utilize.

Christian Brim (46:43.612)
Yes.

Joe Van Wyk (46:56.138)
advanced voice mode like I'm describing to go deeper into that relationship with AI. Can you believe what I'm purporting? mean, here I am. Let's go Matrix!

Christian Brim (47:07.228)
Well, no, but you're using the technology for good, right? And that's, yes. And I guarantee you, whoever you encounter, whoever you talk to in business has problems. And you very well may not be able to help them with that problem. But if you start with the conversation from a servant's heart of asking, how can I help you?

Joe Van Wyk (47:11.746)
Yes, thank you.

Christian Brim (47:34.586)
Like what what what is it that you're struggling with? And you I think you're going to be surprised. I really do.

Joe Van Wyk (47:36.536)
Yeah.

Joe Van Wyk (47:42.318)
How do you discern, okay, what's the real problem? Oh, that's the problem, you know, on the, you know, grass layer. And here's the problem on the soil level. And here's the real mantle, the core. How do you dig down deep enough to really find, well, the problem over here is you've got a CEO that nobody respects and he needs to step down. I mean, I don't even know how to approach that.

Christian Brim (47:47.153)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (48:08.934)
Well, I mean, you're correct in that 99 % of the time when you ask someone what the problem is, you're getting a symptom. You're not getting at the problem. And I go back to Toyota and their methodology of asking why five times and keep digging, you know, because you eventually will get to the root cause. And I would say,

Joe Van Wyk (48:29.111)
Christian Brim (48:38.598)
the larger, well, I don't even say the larger the organization. I'd say the majority of the time, the problem is centered around a person and or their behavior. I mean, that's the reality. I mean, the reality is that the majority of problems are people problems.

Joe Van Wyk (49:04.558)
So when it comes to somebody who's involved on the financial end and the numbers end of this, and they come to you for, hey, can you just crunch those numbers again and tell me what I want to hear? And you're going, numbers are a symptom of a deeper thing. There's a person problem here. How do you bring that in?

Christian Brim (49:25.754)
Exactly.

Exactly. The problem, you know, people come to us all the time like, well, I'm not making enough money. I'm okay. That's, that's not that, that, that's a symptom. The problem is, I mean, business is actually pretty simple. I mean, we complicated. most of the business problems are you don't have a clear idea of the solution and the problem.

You don't have a clear idea of what problem you're solving for your customer or client and what value that brings. Your, your solution brings to the table and, the clearer you get on that, the, the, the easier business gets. but people want to make it more complicated and they don't, they don't want to realize that the reality is, is that you don't have clarity.

you know, because when you to your son's example, when you put something out to the market that they need, you can't control the growth that that becomes a different set of problems. But, you know, that's not where most businesses live, right. And and so it's it's really getting real clarity on what the problem is, because if you if you find a problem that you can solve,

Joe Van Wyk (50:41.103)
He's dealing with that. Yeah, true.

Christian Brim (50:55.294)
that has value, you're not going to have a problem in business. mean, that's... Well, you're going to have a different set of problems.

Joe Van Wyk (51:02.646)
Yeah, sure. I understand that. Are there any examples of people who have come to you that are, let's just say, let's just say the videography and photography fields. Okay. I live in one of the most expensive stretches of real estate on the planet, the roaring fork Valley. and so there are, of course, photographers that are making a living. Let's just say doing

Christian Brim (51:14.726)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Van Wyk (51:34.806)
Okay, let's just say weddings. There have been a caution to use that. But maybe you could take the example of weddings or maybe you could take somebody who creates content for local businesses and whatever video photography. I would argue that those industries are are being decimated. Okay, I there's no doubt that

today and five years from today, there are going to be guys out there killing it doing wedding photography. But that doesn't show the whole picture. That doesn't show the huge people there at the top of that pyramid that have tried to get into that industry and have found the bottom dropping out. Partly because these things take such amazing, amazing photographs. I get it. I get it.

Christian Brim (52:07.302)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (52:26.674)
I would answer first with the conceptual out of history. When the automobile came along, the horses were the primary mode of transportation. And the thought was, well, nobody's going to want horses anymore, so why be in the horse business, right? But the reality is that the horse business now is bigger than it was then.

Because people do different things with horses. They race them. They show them. know, whatever, right? So, so I think the first thing is to, to set aside this idea. mean, I'm not saying that it's not going to fundamentally change your industry, but eliminate it. I would, I would say maybe, right? Okay. But then I'd go to the practical.

Joe Van Wyk (53:03.073)
Okay.

Christian Brim (53:24.282)
I was talking to a videographer up in the Northeast quarter and it started, started with a conversation of like, okay.

He wanted to grow his business and he was successful. had a successful business, but he wanted to grow go further and and so I started with a simple question of like there's a lot of videographers in your area. Why do people pick you as opposed to somebody else? I don't know and we spent about 30 minutes discussing it my asking those questions and What I think he realized was what he brought to the table

for these, he primarily worked with documentary producers, was that for these independent producers, what he brought was predictability and stability. That's what he brought to the table. He showed up on the right set, at the right location, with the right gear, with the right crew, and did what was needed.

I don't know how many independent producers you've worked with, but normally they're the opposite of organized. and so what he was bringing was not videography. Anybody could do videography. What he was bringing was structure. And you know, that's a very different thing.

And that's what I'm talking about getting clear on. Like what is, what is your real value? What problem are you really solving?

Joe Van Wyk (55:01.41)
Would you, if some college freshmen came to you and said, I have a knack with numbers, would you suggest that I stay, and this person didn't have funds to go to college, it was all loans. Would you suggest that I stay in school all the way through and get my CPA?

Christian Brim (55:28.882)
That's a good question.

Hmm It would depend on what they wanted if they wanted a career with an Institution I would say yes, the CPA license is still worth it If they wanted however to go into the business of accounting Like no, I wouldn't waste your time

That's, that's truth.

Joe Van Wyk (56:02.776)
same with law, know, somebody considering going to law school.

Christian Brim (56:09.538)
Law is a little different because you have to have a license to practice it. Most of what accountants do doesn't require a license in most States.

Joe Van Wyk (56:24.751)
I see. You have that CPA to put the final stamp on it, but...

Christian Brim (56:30.456)
Exactly, but that's not that and and and if you think about it in terms of law like if if If you just had to have a law degree to go go to a courtroom Then that would be one thing because that lawyers rarely go to the courtroom Most of what they do is behind the scenes and that's what I'm saying with accounting Most of the behind-the-scenes stuff doesn't require a license

Joe Van Wyk (56:52.27)
Sure.

Christian Brim (56:59.92)
but in law it does.

Joe Van Wyk (57:02.658)
Well, I love what you touched on earlier about something along the lines of, but AI hang on to this. And that this is, it'll try to, and it'll more than happily do it if I let it, but AI should not be determining my hopes, desires, will.

Christian Brim (57:13.521)
Yeah.

Joe Van Wyk (57:30.306)
you know, if it, if it transforms into something that's starting to determine that for me, that's when we're getting into slippery territory, you know, you know, so, so, I mean, this whole thing, when you get to this age, you kind of think, okay, so this has been a lifelong process of continually adjusting my own will and deferring to

Christian Brim (57:39.632)
Yes.

Joe Van Wyk (57:58.626)
God's greater will for me. And what does God want to do? Like when I was doing the professional photography thing and spending all that money in there and doing some great work and doing some, know, paid work in a variety of which, but it didn't, it wasn't what I had originally intended, but God has used that for me to reach other guys who are struggling.

And so what a higher purpose, same skill sets, a lot of the same skill sets that now it's this, this higher purpose. And is there a mark, but then we've get the, is there a market for this? And I think that the, I think that guys in particular, I think that we're really facing a tsunami of men without purpose who are really struggling, who have taken, you know, guys that have, that have spent the thousands and thousands and thousands of hours like you mastering.

Christian Brim (58:24.903)
Yes?

Yes? Yes?

Joe Van Wyk (58:54.122)
a trade that they're just grasping like someone like you ask, what is the value you bring to the table? And they've gone, man, I brainstormed this for so many hours. got nothing left to tell you. I can think of something in isolation, but it actually means me going out in the streets and finding a job or finding a gig or finding a role. I can't find anything but Walmart and Uber.

Christian Brim (59:20.23)
Right. And that's, that's because you're trying to match your skills or what you perceive as your skills with the opportunities out there, as opposed to looking at it from, from the lens of, have a vast amount of experience and I just need to be looking, excuse me. I just need to be looking for problems.

Joe Van Wyk (59:45.538)
love that. God, that is my takeaway. You're blessing me so much. You know, that's right. That's right. Yes, absolutely. And and one of the main problems in regards to technology is people freaking out.

Christian Brim (59:51.42)
Cause they're all, they're all over the place. They're all over the place.

Christian Brim (01:00:04.294)
Yes.

Joe Van Wyk (01:00:04.652)
not knowing if they're going to be replaced. What's my role? What's my purpose? Man, if this thing's smarter than me, then what? Especially if the people who are in Brainiac kind of professions. My gosh, I could pull up, you know, really detailed analytics on the screen, take a photo of it with my iPhone, drop it into chat GBT and get this deep analysis.

in it, much less doing that screenshot across a half a dozen different platforms in it, making sense of that. But then what is the actionable thing that's that's going to be aligned with my purpose to do that? And I still do believe that AI has this ability to harness that. And it's really it's going to be a tool is a tool already for me for breakthrough.

Christian Brim (01:00:45.19)
Yes.

Christian Brim (01:00:59.814)
Well, as you quoted from Esther, who knows? Maybe you were created for just a time as this. Joe, I feel like we could talk for hours. Unfortunately, I'm out of time. How can people find you if they want to purchase the book or learn more about you?

Joe Van Wyk (01:01:04.206)
Thank

Joe Van Wyk (01:01:20.012)
Well, go to Amazon and search for the mindful photography field guide. You'll find it there. And then my website is jovanwyck.com right there on that front page. I guess you call it a lead magnet, but it isn't, you you don't have not a lot of clicks. You plug in, click a button and you'll immediately be taken into a mindful photography course. And so I'd encourage people to do that. But also my main content,

platform is YouTube so if you search for Jovan Y J O E V A N W Y K on YouTube you'll find me. I'd love for you to subscribe to my channel and comment on some videos.

Christian Brim (01:02:00.998)
Perfect. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message and tell us what you like and we'll get rid of Joe. Until then, ta-ta for now.