Turning Storytelling into a Business: William Dickinson

Summary

In this episode of The Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim speaks with Will Dickinson, founder of Visual Campfire, about the art of storytelling and its significance in business. Will shares his journey from being a musician to a video producer and entrepreneur, discussing the challenges he faced, including mental health struggles and the importance of defining one's purpose in business. The conversation emphasizes the need for entrepreneurs to say no to non-ideal clients, the intersection of passion and profit, and the importance of community support. Will also reflects on the healing journey and how it influences his approach to storytelling and business.

Takeaways

• Storytelling is fundamental to human connection.
• Entrepreneurship often involves a winding journey.
• Saying no can lead to better opportunities.
• Defining your business purpose is crucial.
• Profit should not be viewed negatively.
• Mental health is intertwined with entrepreneurship.
• Community support is vital for entrepreneurs.
• Finding your unique value proposition is key.
• Growth should not come at the expense of fulfillment.
• Intentionality in business creation is essential.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.315)
Yeah, I like it. I mean, I haven't used anything else. I don't have to compare to. Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Alpharetta, Georgia. Clearly, I've never been to Alpharetta. Don't even know where it is.

Joining me today, Will Dickinson with Visual Campfire. Welcome to the show, Will.

William Dickinson (00:34.67)
Thanks for having me.

Christian Brim (00:36.213)
Absolutely. So the first thing that kind of came off the top of my head is the name of your company, Visual Campire. So how did you come up with that name?

William Dickinson (00:49.1)
Yeah, I, I languished about it for some time, to be honest, because the names all matter a lot to me. But like, for me, like, storytelling is kind of a buzzword nowadays, but

Christian Brim (01:01.881)
Yes.

William Dickinson (01:02.368)
I think it's a buzzword for a reason. I always loved being a storyteller. love stewarding other people's stories. And if you really go back to like the genesis of stories, and, and it's placed in human history, it, a lot of it started around the campfire. It's in our, I believe stories are in our DNA. Like when we were hunter gatherers, like they would go out and come back and bring stories from the hunt. have.

Christian Brim (01:20.526)
Yes?

William Dickinson (01:30.924)
our creation myths and our stories. then long before written history, we had oral history and that's all there was. And that was all done in the form of stories. And so if you take that and then you combine that with like the magic you feel when you sit around the campfire and connect with people, I was like, I feel like that really encapsulates. like when you steward somebody's story, well, it feels like you're sitting around a campfire, like connecting in that real genuine way.

Christian Brim (01:37.881)
Guess.

Christian Brim (02:00.485)
I love that analogy. We have a similar item on our meeting agenda and we call it Campfire to discuss client stories. know, how did we improve or enhance the lives of our clients? That's a bullet point on our weekly meeting. Because I believe

William Dickinson (02:17.454)
Okay.

Christian Brim (02:30.275)
that community is a, you know, I didn't, I didn't define it this way. Perry Marshall did. He said, community is, is a set of, agreed on stories. You know, that's what makes a community is that everybody knows the story. they know that story about will the time he, you know, broke his leg when we were on the hike, you know, I mean, like there's, and I'm like,

William Dickinson (02:47.342)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (03:00.323)
You know, that's really true. you know, a community at its core has a set of collected stories. So I love the idea of a campfire. So how did you get into this gig?

William Dickinson (03:17.864)
My so on the subject of being a storyteller, my my story always challenges my skill at being one because it has been very, very long and windy. So I'll try to make this palatable. And yeah.

Christian Brim (03:32.143)
There are no straight lines in nature. I was thinking that this morning, like only humans think that there are straight lines. There are no straight lines.

William Dickinson (03:42.36)
So.

creatively, I, you right out of high school, I was fortunate to have a band start doing well. We were a screamo band, you know, and this'll age me, this will date me, but like, we started to get big on my space and, yeah. So, you know, I'm almost 40 now. So, my space was the place to be at the advent of social media and all of that. and like, no one told me this, but we did a really good job of like grassroots marketing there. We were a

Christian Brim (03:58.723)
Okay.

Christian Brim (04:04.975)
Yes?

William Dickinson (04:13.904)
constantly connecting people, were constantly sharing our stories, like really being engaging there. And then we, you know, we had a great product. We had great music, like we worked hard. The band was full of really talented people. And so we kind of had that perfect storm of what you needed to break through back then. Started to do that. We did well, you know, and then kind of classic musician story. We started to break through and then the band broke up and

You know, spent, I spent the next, you know, six or seven years getting into trouble, trying to recreate that success, all of that really having nothing to show for it. and then out of the blue, I was washing dishes in kitchens and stuff. And a buddy called me and was like, Hey man, this is going to sound really weird.

But I was like praying about this and heard you'd be really good at it. Do you want to come intern with me? I was like, absolutely. Um, this sounds great. And so I went and borrowed some clothes from my dad. Cause I had no real person clothes at the time and like, uh, showed up to this meeting and pretended like I was a producer and it turns out I had a knack for it. And so, uh,

Christian Brim (05:16.644)
Yes.

William Dickinson (05:26.232)
came on board with that company, started producing commercial work in commercial. This was commercial video production. Sorry, I kind of fast forwarded that little important detail, but.

Christian Brim (05:29.849)
Was this audio production or video? Okay.

Christian Brim (05:37.637)
So did you pick up skills before then or were you raw?

William Dickinson (05:40.35)
No, it's, you know, the, musician to video producer and filmmaker pipeline is real. it, it utilizes a lot of similar skillsets, even like your, you know, your nonlinear editors are very similar to your, you know, digital audio workspaces, I think is what DAW stands for. So, you know, and then as far as like writing music, you know, sharing stuff, connecting with people.

There, if you can abstract that into like a visual story, the same ideas are there is like, you know, you got to have an intro, you got to have a hook, you got to have a bridge kind of like there's an arc to all of it. And so if you can kind of figure out the soft skills, then the rest of it's technical. So I started learning how to be a producer and an editor. so producing is very similar to managing a band and all of that. You're just.

getting a whole bunch of talent that's probably kind of hard to work with into one room and making them and keeping them all happy. You know, that's kind of a joke. I get to work with a lot of people that are really great to work with, but, you know, creatives are historically opinionated as they should be because their whole life is based on their taste and their perspective. But, know, so producing was a kind of natural crossover and then editing was too.

Christian Brim (06:42.756)
Yes.

Christian Brim (06:57.732)
Yes.

William Dickinson (07:03.946)
And then from there, I started to kind of reverse engineer all of the other skillsets. So whether it was lighting, cinematography, directing, any of that. so within about a year of being a producer and an editor, I also learned all the other skillsets. So I kind of became a one person band where I'd be a guy that you could pack a camera and a drone and a mic into a backpack and drop me anywhere in the world and I can grab a story. And so.

Christian Brim (07:33.135)
You were like a ranger. You were the video ranger. I'm giving you that moniker now.

William Dickinson (07:40.382)
I'll take it. don't not to be an insult to the real Rangers out there who are probably infinitely more jacked than I am, but, yeah. So, you know, did that for six years and was fortunate to lead, you know, some of the, some really amazing studios in Oklahoma city. and then I was in Mexico doing a doc project, for a sustainable clothing brand. I picked up what.

we think was like a little parasite there and then, came back and the medicine they gave me when I got back into the States, I had this freak allergic reaction to, it like straight up crippled me overnight. And so went from doing all of that as a career to losing it all overnight, kind of having to redefine myself.

And ended up in the startup marketing sector for about five years. So yeah, yeah, there's a good stop me point, right?

Christian Brim (08:37.317)
Wait a second. So, okay. So pause for a second. was this a permanent disability or was this a temporary disability?

William Dickinson (08:44.126)
It was unclear. the original prognosis was it was probably going to be permanent. People that, had that kind of reaction tend to not recover. but it, it was wholly unclear whether or not I was going to recover. and then on what kind of timeline, whether it was going to be years, know, months, years, decades, whatever. And so, ended up in the startup marketing space for about five years.

Got to do some cool stuff there. I got to, you know, I ended up doing content licensing and content marketing for one of the bigger VR companies in the world. like anytime somebody made a VR title, they came to us. And so when BBC did Dr. Who, I got to be the guy that cut the marketing deal for that. You know, we did Predator with Fox net, a lot of other stuff. So did that for a while. And then that company got acquired.

And I think it was 2021. Uh, then I was at a health tech startup based out of Austin. Uh, was there until last May, May of 2024. And then I left there, uh, felt like my health was in a decent enough place. I miss telling stories. I love it. Um, you know, it's one of the things I feel like I'm put on this earth for. And so I, um, about out of the startup.

and launch Visual Camp Fire in May of 2024 in earnest.

Christian Brim (10:16.485)
So that had to be a big leap going from working for others to starting your own gig. What was your thought process there?

William Dickinson (10:29.93)
It was a lot of things. First, how'd I do other than skipping over the video production detail? How was that for 10 years of highs and lows? And thank you. Okay. Cool. so

Christian Brim (10:37.157)
That was excellent. That was excellent. You did well.

William Dickinson (10:43.234)
I mean, it was a big leap. Like I try not to be a preachy person, but I also live based on a faith. And so I had a faith in God that that's what I was supposed to be doing. That is going to be okay. One way or the other. It's been scary and terrifying and, and great and all of that since then. but then also like, I have been fortunate to number two for some really talented entrepreneurs. like I.

I've gotten to see people that are really good at what they do. And I was always the guy. They did all the business stuff and I executed on the product and specifically in a video context, you know, we, I'd run some, you know, high level studios. We'd had, you know, the last studio I was at when I got hurt had Oracle as a client, you know, they were doing stuff all around the world. fortune one clients, you know, I've been.

You know, one at a film festival, got some other awards and all that stuff. So like, I knew I could create the product and from, you know, the last five years of marketing, I knew at least like how to help people give the product legs. so from there, it was like, okay, if I can figure out all the entrepreneurship stuff, then I can, then I can do this myself. And it's been super hard, obviously being an entrepreneur is one of the hardest things I've ever done.

Christian Brim (11:54.245)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (12:09.996)
But it's been really rewarding. So I think I did have the confidence of like having seen other people do it and at least been able to like mimic them and find people with more experience than me when I'm like falling apart and need some help.

Christian Brim (12:26.805)
So what, you know, last year, what has been the biggest challenge making that transition to entrepreneur from being number two to being number one?

William Dickinson (12:38.314)
Yeah. man. That's a good question. there's been so many of them. don't quite know what the biggest one is. I would maybe say like my own mindset and mentality, like I tend to catastrophize and dwell on mistakes and you can't really do that. Like I remember reading in a newsletter, like eight years ago, like some of the most

Christian Brim (12:52.357)
Hmm.

William Dickinson (13:06.71)
successful business owners have a short memory for their own failures and their own mistakes. Like you can't move forward if you're stuck in the past. Like you've got to analyze the past enough to not repeat your mistakes. Obviously you got to learn. Like there's got to be some heuristics there, but if you dwell on it, you're screwed. because you're going to make mistakes as an entrepreneur, you're going to mess up and, you're going to have to recover.

Christian Brim (13:16.847)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (13:35.37)
And so I think one of the biggest challenges has certainly been getting out of that like catastrophe spiral that I can go down.

Christian Brim (13:45.091)
Yeah, think. Yeah, yes. That's a, that's an interesting thing to unpack because,

I would say that that, catastrophizing is, not typically a entrepreneurial characteristic in the sense that we're, we're usually the opposite. Like we think everything's going to be great. Right. but certainly when failure does hit you as an entrepreneur, I think it's easy to.

William Dickinson (14:14.883)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (14:26.263)
slip into that spiral, because of the fact that there's not a great support network for entrepreneurs, right? Like there's not, a, a help group for the most part to, go and share your problems. And, know, speaking about those problems with non-entrepreneurs is not

William Dickinson (14:37.909)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (14:52.725)
usually very productive because they don't understand from where you're coming. And, and, and I, I guess the difference between that and, like, if you make a mistake working for someone else is that you've got someone that can cover your ass. Whereas as an entrepreneur, it's all you. mean, ultimately everything is your responsibility. Whether you delegate that to somebody else or not, it's, it's yours and you own it.

William Dickinson (15:08.896)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (15:23.257)
And if you're in that spiral where you're doubting yourself and you're and you're doubting your abilities, it can get dark quick. mean, definitely. I'm going to throw in an, just because it's in the back of my head, you said, I'm going to go back to scream metal. Now, when, when you say scream metal, I'm thinking like corn is that

Would that qualify?

William Dickinson (15:53.206)
a little, I mean, kind of they're a bit more like rap rocky. But

Christian Brim (15:57.623)
Okay, so give me a scream metal band that I would know.

William Dickinson (16:03.022)
Oh, that's a, that's a good question. So screamo was what I said, which is the intersection of screaming and emo. But like, if you're looking for like a contemporary, you've got like, uh, you know, guess two bands that come to mind that I still listen to one is called like dance, Gavin dance. One's called driveways. If you love emo, there's that, but like we played shows with like my chemical romance, the used seo sin kill switch engage kind of all the

Christian Brim (16:12.527)
Okay.

William Dickinson (16:32.94)
A lot of the big ones from back in the day. that's where we were at.

Christian Brim (16:36.131)
Okay. Well, so I, none of those ring any bells. So I, the only now, now one, and I don't know if this fits in the, it's definitely not scream. but I don't know if it's scream, is, is a band I was turned onto a long time ago from, don't remember the TV show, but, they were a, a, their, music was in a show and after researching it, was actually in a lot of

they've been in a lot of different movies too, is a band called Demon Hunter. Have you heard of them? Okay. They're a Christian band, but like it's not your worship music.

William Dickinson (17:13.996)
I think so. I... Yeah.

William Dickinson (17:22.55)
Yeah, yeah, I think I know. I think I'm picking up what you're putting down and I think it qualifies for sure.

Christian Brim (17:25.795)
Yeah. Okay. All right. so back, back to the dark place. I don't know why I'm, I'm all over the place. so I think we connected, on LinkedIn because of the post on my, episode with Bob Regnerus, when he was talking about his anxiety attack. Is that, is that right?

William Dickinson (17:50.35)
Mm-hmm.

I think so. think that was kind of the what.

brought it all together. Cause I'd made a post that again, like I have a modest sized audience, but I made a post that did decently well, be being vulnerable about like almost checking myself into the ER. Cause I was, uh, I thought I was having heart stuff and I was having like the biggest panic attack I'd ever had. Um, and that being a huge turning point in my journey. And that was, mean, that was only last March really. Um, but

Christian Brim (17:56.718)
Okay.

Christian Brim (18:23.407)
So was before you launched Visual Campfire.

William Dickinson (18:27.406)
No, I mean, that's, would have been like March, 2025. So we, cause I, yeah. Cause like, this was kind of a side hustle sort of thing for a year while I was at the startup. Like I didn't know if my body could do it. I was still recovering. Like I'm, you know, when, after I got hurt, I dropped to like, I'm six one, I dropped 135 pounds. I. 137 actually, but I'd been, you I'd been in CrossFit. was one 85. I was like, you know, pretty active and big and lost.

Christian Brim (18:30.243)
this, okay, just this much.

Christian Brim (18:46.969)
Holy cow.

William Dickinson (18:57.36)
50 pounds of muscle and really everything. I was a stick. And so, you know, I was, I'd been, you know, in long-term rehab for five years, not knowing if I was going to be able to do it. And then really just got to a point where was like, I've got to, I got to take this risk. I got to see if I can do it. I got to see if my body can hold up because I know this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm tired of not like.

Christian Brim (18:59.599)
Yeah.

William Dickinson (19:23.424)
I was good in my role as a startup CMO, but like.

It's where, when we're operating in our zone of excellence, it's a whole different thing. And I wasn't happy just being good. Like I want, if I'm going to spend my time here doing anything, I want to try to really be great at it. And, and we all have innate gifts. And like one of mine has been the ability to sit with other people and their stories and bring those to light in a way that like honors them and inspires

Christian Brim (19:45.679)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (19:59.784)
others and, potentially does something good in the world. You know, I do a lot of corporate work, so it's not all like feel good, but even if I can like help a business, like help a business I believe in connect with new customers and new audiences and tell their story and highlight their team in a way that helps them achieve goals. Like I'm satisfied with that. So.

Christian Brim (20:20.409)
So, so this anxiety attack that you're referencing then just happened like three months ago. Okay. And the, the story Bob shared, I don't know if you listened to the episode, but the story he shared was like, it, it,

William Dickinson (20:28.238)
This was like three months ago, yeah, three and half months ago, so.

Christian Brim (20:43.679)
He didn't know that he was having an anxiety attack and, and once he diagnosed that or was diagnosed with that, you know, he, he made the comment that, you know, your body is going to shut you down. If you don't, if you don't get out of that anxiety space, like you're it's, it's not optional. You're either going to, you're either going to choose to leave the anxious space.

William Dickinson (21:05.869)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (21:13.197)
or your body's going to make you. Did you realize that you were in an anxious space before you had that attack?

William Dickinson (21:23.886)
Um, I, mean, I, I knew I was because I'd taken on a series of incredibly challenging projects, but I didn't know. Like how it's like when you're in a storm, like you could see the storm and you know it, but you don't always know, like if you got a leak somewhere. And so I knew I was in the storm, but I didn't quite know that I had.

Christian Brim (21:44.698)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (21:51.4)
bunch of leaks and that the boat was taken on water and so that makes any sense.

Christian Brim (21:57.347)
No, it does. I, it is, it, it, it's incredibly hard. I don't want to say impossible, but it's incredibly hard to self-diagnose, to, to, to really see yourself as you are. you know, getting caught up in your own head. it, in my experience, it takes others to help you sort through that. I remember.

Like the last time I had anxiety that it actually, had physical manifestations was a couple of years ago. And I, I, I did identify that I was like, okay, something's wrong because I'm feeling this way, but I wasn't real clear on what was causing it. and it turned out that.

It was a problem I was trying to solve, but I was terribly unsuccessful at it. And actually I would say was probably being counterproductive. so I was going backwards in trying to solve this problem. And what I realized, is that I, I had this belief that

I couldn't quit and, I don't, I, I, I don't really know where it comes from. If it was something I learned or it's, it's, it's just part of who I am. I relayed the story about when I became, when I was training to be a private pilot, about halfway through the training, I realized that.

I didn't want to do this anymore. I didn't want to fly. It was too stressful to me. I was good at it, but I didn't like it. It was, it was, to me, it was equating like driving in Dallas rush hour traffic, times three, like, you know, just stresses you out. Right. and I'm like,

William Dickinson (24:03.278)
Okay.

William Dickinson (24:23.277)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (24:26.679)
I knew I wasn't going to do it, but I couldn't quit. so I, I continued with my training, finished my training, got my license. I took one flight as a private pilot. took my uncle to Clinton America, no Elk city America. and that's it. I haven't flown in over two years since that time. And.

William Dickinson (24:44.27)
Okay.

Christian Brim (24:53.293)
I tell that story to say though, but that that's the level of I can't quit that I've got in my head. Right. And so when I was working on this business problem, even though was evident that I was not being productive, it was my instinct. My belief was to just hold onto that rope. Don't quit. And it was something that in, in

in my entrepreneurial journey had definitely served me well. Like, you know, as an entrepreneur, if you quit easily, you're not going to be successful. It's just the bottom line. And so it worked for me until it didn't. And what I had to do was let go of that rope and let someone else solve the problem. And it wasn't a matter of, you know, I don't think they can do it or I don't trust them to do it.

It was the it had been my responsibility and it had been my problem to solve and it was really hard for me to to turn loose of the rope and I had this anxiety. I mean, like I was just miserable. I was irritable and I'm like, why am I feeling this way? And I couldn't figure it out. But after I after I worked with my leadership team on this and they said, you know,

why don't we let someone else try? And I let go of the rope and I'm like, holy shit, that was what was causing, you know, all of this anxiety, right? Now I'm just sharing that story. I don't know if that resonates with you at all.

William Dickinson (26:28.247)
Yeah.

William Dickinson (26:35.36)
No, I mean, it totally does. I, ours is very similar in a slightly different context. Like mine was, I told myself when I started this, I'm going to say yes to everything that comes my way so that I can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, and my rationale was so I can get my laps back in with the camera, with producing.

Christian Brim (26:48.179)
William Dickinson (26:59.916)
You know, there's a lot I got better at while I was away. And then there's some stuff that I got worse at, you know, just kind of the, you know, just production habits, processes, SOPs kind of.

those things and, then even just time out with the camera. And so I was kind of in this idea of I need to do it all and I need to say yes to all of it. So I said yes to some stuff that, you know, I don't regret it. I'm great. I needed to learn those lessons, but, ultimately the lesson was that like, you gotta say no. And so I've, been practicing that.

Christian Brim (27:18.242)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (27:35.311)
You

William Dickinson (27:41.294)
this year. It's been hard. I just declined something last Friday and I was like, I mean, I kind of want that money. I really wouldn't mind it. I could do it. I could do a good job at it. But like, that doesn't, you know, I could tell

Christian Brim (27:49.583)
Right.

William Dickinson (27:58.666)
Even just like little stuff, like I never want to speak in a disparaging way. Cause like sometimes clients that aren't good clients just aren't good clients for me. That doesn't mean they're not great people or great clients for somebody else. There's just different styles and, and vibes and kind of all of that. So this potential person.

Could very well be an incredible, well-paying client for somebody else, but the way that they wanted to do things and the way that they communicated and all of that, was just like, you know what? This is not how I do business and this is not how I work. So I'm going to say no to this money. And I'm going to recommend them to somebody that I think could do a great job for them and move on. and so, you know, a lot of my anxiety came from saying yes to situations that again, like great people, great stuff all around, but like,

It wasn't the right thing for me. I, a lot of things, isn't entrepreneurship like the whole gamut of the human experience where you're like, this is awesome. This is great. Holy shit. This is terrifying. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm so good at this. my God. I'm so bad at this. Like, and so in some ways I felt good and felt empowered cause I am integrating the lessons that I need to.

Christian Brim (28:48.495)
So how did you feel after you told them no?

Christian Brim (29:01.956)
Yes.

Christian Brim (29:06.586)
Yes.

William Dickinson (29:14.966)
And then in other ways, like I felt fearful of like, okay, I just missed some money. and then yesterday another deal closed that, is with somebody that I, you know, I gel with really well. We've got.

Christian Brim (29:23.085)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (29:30.218)
You know, we had a decent size successful project together last year that helped exceed the goals for the project. So they're a great fit. then ultimately, like I can, until I scale my business, I'm pretty core to everything that we do. So that means that when my attention's diverted elsewhere, it's not, you know, where it needs to be. So I've got enough projects in the pipeline to, you know, hit my, my

Christian Brim (29:54.191)
Yes.

William Dickinson (30:00.064)
my goals this quarter. And it's with people that I want, you if I could wave a magic wand and get 10 more of them, I would. And so because that's something they don't tell you is like, if you say yes to a bunch of your non ideal clients, you're probably going to get more of those. you to start saying yes to your ideal clients. And if you don't have the

emotional or creative or even just like physical bandwidth for it. And you don't bring, you know, your A plus game to that. Like you may not be attracting the right people. So yeah, it felt, it felt good after that other job landed, especially.

Christian Brim (30:35.875)
Yeah. Yeah. That I would say as an entrepreneur, one that is, is passionate about what they do, that, that is, that is a creative and driven by passion, which is usually some form of helping others. if, if you don't know how to say no, let me phrase it this way. I think the ability to say no.

is one of the most powerful lessons you can learn. It's funny that when I started my business, I actually bought a franchise. There were accounting franchises, three at the time. I don't think any exist anymore. But I remember during the training, the trainer who was a franchisee, someone had asked about, what if we changed this?

And he said, every time you change the process, you're taking money out of your pocket. So just do this and do it a hundred times. Right. And somewhere along the way, I forgot that lesson. Like, and I got, I got way spread out doing way too many different things for way too many different people. to the point where.

We actually had to intentionally shrink about nine or 10 years ago, maybe, you know, somewhere in there. and we had to shrink the business 20%. We had to let things go, sell things like just, you know, and as an entrepreneur, that felt awful, like, you know, going backwards, but I had built this unstable foundation, right?

William Dickinson (32:22.338)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (32:29.925)
And when we retooled, was like, okay, we're going to do this one thing and that's it. And we have kind of expanded it a little bit and then we've narrowed it a little bit. But I think what your experience is one that we all experience probably multiple times.

And the better we can get at saying no and being very clear on what it is that we want to do and that we're good at and that solves a problem and is worth money, the better off we're going to be.

William Dickinson (33:03.15)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (33:10.378)
Absolutely. That's been the, the panic attack inducing lesson that I've been learning. most certainly and, still going through it, right? Like when I started campfire, I was like, well, I've got all this marketing experience. Like maybe we do, you know, maybe it's video plus we do all the other marketing stuff, all the ads, all this, that, and the other,

And in reality, the video stuff is what keeps people coming back. mean, I love deploying, you know, I love being a part of people's ads deployment. This is kind of like a self brag, but it fits within the story. So I'll drop it. But like, you know, we just, had an agency hire me to make a bunch of video ads for their client.

and this was the first time ever in the client's history that they hit a wait list for enrollment for their school district because the, ad deployments did so well.

Christian Brim (34:02.661)
Nice.

William Dickinson (34:04.544)
So do I necessarily need to be the person managing all of that? Probably not. It's looking like I need to be the person that like conceptualizes and executes on the creative, and connects with the stories that we believe are going to resonate with people and help with the strategy there and then let other people do that. So I'm, you know, I'm in the midst of also kind of redefining my business and saying, maybe I just need to be video production only. you know, I'll do, you know,

I'll probably have like a, you know, a little consultancy on the side. Like I have some startups that I help with their fundraising stories and their decks and all that fun stuff. And, I enjoy it. And it's nice having some work that doesn't involve my physical labor.

Cause like when you're on set, you know, and you, can hire for all of that stuff, but that's cuts into margins and I like doing it and all of that. But like when you're on set, it's very physical and I know more than anybody. If you get hurt, you're screwed. Like,

My cinematographer broke his foot and he's going to have to get surgery. And it's like, it's a scary thing for him. And so I'm going to move him into an editing position for me for a while that, you know, he's, he's, he's great at that. But like, so it's nice kind of as an entrepreneur too, you have to be thinking like, okay, how, how is this sustainable? Like one year from now, two years from about 10 years from now, 20 years from now, you know, in the AI conversations, the whole other candle worms, but I think just like,

Christian Brim (35:16.837)
desk job.

William Dickinson (35:36.778)
Mechanically, I'm in the process of, I need to have Campfire be solely focused on creating people's stories, telling those and doing that through video and then figure out, okay, where do I, you know, how do I keep monetizing some of the marketing background in a way that I can just do computer work and have some revenue streams there. But from an entity perspective, it seems like a lack of focus there has not been good for my business.

Christian Brim (36:04.407)
It never is. And you know, you come from a robust background where you have a lot of skills and you know how they all fit together. And so it's, it's tempting to do things, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. Right. In my book, I talk about the Pareto principle. Are you familiar with it? Yeah.

William Dickinson (36:25.046)
Yeah, that is true.

William Dickinson (36:32.426)
Yeah, the 80-20.

Christian Brim (36:33.349)
And I think that is one of the largest challenges entrepreneurs, especially solopreneurs, but it affects all entrepreneurs is, and it really, it goes to the point you're making as the, at the business level is what are you really good at? What, what is the 20 %

of your efforts that produce 80 % of your results or the 20 % of your clients that produce 80 % of your revenue or profit, maybe not revenue, but profit. And as an entrepreneur, you're sitting there, well, you you can do it all. You can shoot, you can edit, you can write copy, you can deploy the ads. Like you can do all of this stuff. So what is it that you think you are most valuable at?

William Dickinson (37:02.648)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (37:27.491)
What produces the most value for others that you do?

William Dickinson (37:32.686)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (37:34.149)
I'm going to put you on the spot.

William Dickinson (37:36.622)
Yeah, I know. I mean, realistically it's, it's, it's the human element of the story. is figuring out who on the front end, like, who is this for? Who does this provide value for? And then what part of you and your story is so compelling that when we put that out into the world and get that in front of the right people, it's going to have a multiplier effect. And so that

I don't know how, you know, what, where that like kind of falls into the stratification of all of it. But the reality is it is, it does go back to that story component of like, cause I really believe in honoring the audience. Like we are inundated in content. Like every day we're making millions of decisions on what we're going to consume and why. like in a world where everyone wants to go viral, like half the time I'm like, why?

just because a million and a half people or a billion people see your stuff, it doesn't always work out. Like some of my most, uh, like lucrative LinkedIn posts have had two or three people see them, but the right person saw it and it turned into the biggest deal I've had all year. And so for me, yeah, I think the thing that I'm

Christian Brim (38:43.941)
for the right people, you're right.

William Dickinson (38:55.426)
best at is kind of like, define capturing the messaging in the audience and kind of the, the magic of the, you know, on people have on one end of it and the need of the people on the other and saying, okay, like, where does your unique place in the world, your unique solution, your unique perspective or whatever, where does that intersect with the people that you really want to get this message?

and their pain points and the things that are going to actually add value to their lives. And let's capture that and put the best of you out into the light in front of the right people and let the stories go from there. So I think that's probably what I'm best at.

Christian Brim (39:36.961)
I think that whether you realize it or not, do you have just enunciated a very powerful statement because what you just defined is sorely lacking in the marketplace.

William Dickinson (39:55.758)
Hmm. Okay. I'm happy to hear that.

Christian Brim (39:56.229)
I really truly believe that and it's not just video, it is marketing in general. And I bag on marketing a lot on this show and I probably shouldn't because I love our marketing clients and I'm not trying to disparage the industry because there's a lot of very talented people and a lot of people

in videography that are talented and it's not about the talent. Yeah, the talent has to be there, but it's a depth of understanding of what problem you're solving and what value you bring to the table. And the way you described it of like understanding their uniqueness and where it intersects with the people that they want to talk to, that's what's missing.

William Dickinson (40:52.27)
Mmm.

That's it. mean, that's great to hear.

Christian Brim (40:56.163)
Yeah. Yeah. I hope, I hope you can, you can lean into that because I really, I think that's where the power is. mean, like if you're good at that, there is a huge demand for it.

William Dickinson (41:11.744)
Okay. You know, I mean, and thankfully that's something that I've been fortunate to have results behind, whether it's, you know, fundraising numbers of, like if we capture this story and put it in front of the people that you want to support you, they're going to want to give like, you know, they're going to want to participate in this organization because,

of just how amazing like this is something I can brag on. have a, you know, we have a world-class child advocacy center here in Oklahoma City. And I got to hang out with the team and I was like, gah, people, if the world could just see how incredible and passionate like all of the staff is, if they could see who these people are behind the scenes, they would be blown away.

Christian Brim (41:57.636)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (41:59.202)
And so we did, you know, an entire piece behind that and it exceeded expectations. And, you know, it wasn't the.

My work is usually never the, the be all end all because I'm, you know, I think that the end of the day, there's a bunch of people involved in the success of these stories and organizations. But if I can give a window into whatever unique magic they have, then I think it's a, it makes people want to participate. Um, you know, whether that's volunteering or giving or buying or whatever. And so, um, you know, I've been fortunate the past year and a half to

Christian Brim (42:27.151)
Yes.

William Dickinson (42:37.506)
have a lot of those wins under my belt where it's like, let's just show the right. mean, it sounds reductive, but it's like, show the right stuff to the right people and let them make the choice.

Christian Brim (42:47.237)
Yeah. And with a nonprofit, I think it's easier to find the passion behind the organization than it is with a for-profit. But there are businesses out there that are passion-driven and are not dissimilar to a nonprofit in the sense that

They have a passion for helping people and solving their problems and they have solutions and you telling that story to help the people that need to hear about the solution is the same thing, right? It just has a business layer, a profit motive on top of it, but the process is the same, right?

William Dickinson (43:46.56)
Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think people get trapped in this idea that like profit is a bad word, or that like, being in business is somehow like, I'm gonna kind of like, wax poetic, but it's somehow like, extractionary or something when in reality, like, we've all got to eat, we've all got to make money, like,

I do I think that my dentist should make a great living. Absolutely. I really like my teeth. We should all like our teeth and people should deserve to be able to like live dignified lives providing these services. So like, I don't think profits a bad word. I don't think making money is a bad word. And like, if I had to choose between a dentist that's really passionate about it and loves what they do and really takes it seriously versus somebody that's just like showing up to make good money, I'm going

Christian Brim (44:12.301)
Absolutely. Yes.

William Dickinson (44:38.742)
take the person that loves it all day, every day. And I use that specifically, I've got a dentist client and it's like, is my, is my dental content going to go viral? Probably not. Like there may be an edge in there that some, you know, does something interesting, but at the end of the day, like, especially in these like high, like cost per click sectors,

If you have like organic content that you can run, you know, certain targeted ads to, and you have an organic strategy that does decently well within, you know, a confined space, and then you can put that in front of people, let that passion show and then be like, cause you know, for this one, these people are amazing at, like.

Christian Brim (45:24.825)
Mmm.

William Dickinson (45:24.858)
dealing with dental anxiety. That's one of the things they love every one of their staff like I got to interview a bunch of their staff to figure out you know what makes them unique and what's cool about them and then

We cross-reference that against like Google reviews and say like, are the, you know, what are your kind of highest things there? Cause that's where you can find the magic too, is let other people do the talking and we just facilitate the story. Right? Like, you know that you did that with me. I, you helped me figure out something about my story that I didn't know, but once I was prompted, I could articulate and that's why people come to me. So we do that for other people and like,

Christian Brim (45:52.58)
Yes.

William Dickinson (45:58.102)
You know, for them, Easing dental anxiety is something that they're amazing at. And so was like, let's lean into that. Like, let's tell stories about.

people that felt, you know, really either fearful or about coming to the dentist or negative about their smile. And then let's show what it was like after. And that's a no brainer. And so you can, so kind of back to kind of land that plane, so to speak is like in profit driven sectors, there's a lot of people that really love what they do and really care a lot about it. And, and we should want them to be making great money so that they can continue

Christian Brim (46:16.591)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (46:33.253)
100%.

William Dickinson (46:37.04)
continue to educate and learn and grow and expand and serve more people and help more people.

Christian Brim (46:41.401)
Yeah. And I would say the bulk of small business owners are that way. know, corporate America, that's a different story. they, they don't, I don't, I don't think you could take any publicly traded company of any size, that, that really cares, but that's, that, that's fine. Like, you know, let them do their thing.

William Dickinson (46:50.369)
Yeah, yeah.

William Dickinson (47:04.396)
I have strong opinions about scaling because it's like, and I've seen it from the inside and the outside enough to where it's like, think...

My like one kind of pushback is like, think that people inside of those orgs care. think all companies, I don't know where it is, but I think there's an inflection point where it becomes a machine. And to feed that machine, there has to be sacrifices, that, that are, are made to the machine. And oftentimes it is that like extra 10 % of caring or that extra, you know, whatever human touch or that extra like.

Christian Brim (47:22.873)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (47:42.51)
We got to reduce head count because if I don't, and it's really easy to rationalize, right? Cause it's like, if you don't make that decision and the company goes under, then all of a sudden everyone else there that depends on you for a paycheck. Isn't able to do that. So, I mean, I think there's just a point of scale in which, yeah, the machine has to be fed. Um, and, and so I think that's also as a very small business owner. I think about a lot of like, what kind of business do I run? Do I ever want to be a big agency? I don't

Christian Brim (47:54.745)
Yeah.

William Dickinson (48:12.544)
think I do because I think I can get everything that I want out of life without having to get to that point of sacrifice but who knows this is recorded so we'll see if I eat my words in years.

Christian Brim (48:21.189)
Sure you can. no, I think where it could happen unintentionally, if you're not careful, you could grow to that. But I think what you're saying is so important for entrepreneurs to understand is that the business serves them, not the other way around. And you have to be intentional.

about creating the business that you want. Otherwise it becomes something that you don't want and you serve it. And, and that's not where you want to be working, working harder, making less money and being unfulfilled. That's not what you want. It is, it is. I was sitting in a, a room of about 50 entrepreneurs and

William Dickinson (48:59.342)
Mmm.

William Dickinson (49:04.526)
Yeah.

William Dickinson (49:10.262)
Yeah, that sounds terrible.

Christian Brim (49:19.365)
Vern harness author of scaling up and the Rockefeller habits was the speaker. And he asked this group, who all had businesses that, you know, we're doing at least a million dollars in revenue. And he said, how many of you could cut your business in size radically, maybe by half, and you'd make more money and you'd work less and

a huge percentage of the hands went up. But so many of us, myself included, get sucked into that illusion of growth for growth's sake without really having any destination in mind. And all of a sudden or over time, it becomes this beast you have to sacrifice to.

William Dickinson (50:04.696)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (50:16.995)
You want to continue that analogy? Yes.

William Dickinson (50:18.285)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (50:21.305)
Absolutely.

William Dickinson (50:23.106)
Yeah, that makes sense. You know, and you see, that's where I think you see a lot of like well-intentioned people start to lose some of that, humanity that made them well-intentioned in the first place. Cause again, there's so many ways that once you're at that size and that scale, it's really easy to rationalize every decision you've got to make to keep growing. And you lose some of that, like that human touch. So.

Christian Brim (50:46.213)
Why are you here? Yeah. Like when we did the work in our company to restructure about eight years ago, it was, you know, what is the why of the business and why do we exist? mean, and our why, our mission, if you will, is to enhance the lives of our clients and team.

it. If we're not doing that, we have no business being here. Like if we're not making people's lives better, then pack up and go home and go do something else somewhere else. And you know, that's got to be something that you come back periodically in touch to say, okay, why are we doing this? Is this serving our purpose? If it's not, get rid of it.

William Dickinson (51:47.778)
Yeah. And like having that purpose be defined is so important. And it's hard to do. Like it's easy to want to be everything for everybody. especially me, like, you know, recovering people pleaser. And so you, and, know, and we want to, we want to excel and we want to do all of that. And so I've just recently kind of, even as you're talking about it, I'm like, okay, could I, could I encapsulate, my purpose? Like my buddy.

Christian Brim (51:50.074)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (51:59.48)
Yes.

William Dickinson (52:15.886)
Uh, Adam Corey, he's a life coach, business coach, and he's been, he's got this amazing program that's helped me a lot because it's only recently that I've really been able to define it. And like, so, and it's like, okay, if I had to come up with it right now, what would it be? And for me, it's, to take amazing stories out of the dark and put them into the light. And that's vague enough and broad enough that it can be your documentary work, you know, on, you know, done some work on the Syrian border, covering the refugee crisis, conflict,

Christian Brim (52:43.588)
Mm-hmm.

William Dickinson (52:45.84)
I that was and all that, it can also be your enterprise startup that makes these, has this incredible level of intelligence around the solutions they offer to the market and how those really matter to other people. like an amazing story all comes back to, again, to me, like that human element, because I just love getting to like, when you hear brilliant people talk about stuff they're passionate about, it's so cool. Right. Like,

Christian Brim (52:51.311)
Sure.

Christian Brim (53:12.057)
Yeah, exactly. And, know, to your, to your point about people pleasing your example of telling that, prospect no, and referring them to somebody else that you thought would be a better fit for them is helping them, you know, and that that's, that's, that's one of the things that I had to figure out is like, I want to help people, but I can't help everybody. you know, just, just in, you know, the limitation of time capacity. Sure. But like, I'm not.

William Dickinson (53:28.568)
Hmm.

William Dickinson (53:36.482)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (53:41.465)
the right person for everybody. and core is not the right for everybody. But, you know, I can still help them by pointing them in the right direction or get having them gain clarity on what it is that they really need, you know, because a lot of times people don't know what they need. They just have symptoms. And it's like, they come to the doctor and like, I've got these symptoms. I don't have enough money in the bank. I

William Dickinson (53:59.374)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (54:07.919)
can't predict when the cash flow is gonna come in, it's chicken or feathers, or I'm working too much, or I'm not getting enough business, I'm not working enough. Those are just symptoms. So if I can help them diagnose really what their underlying condition is, even though I can't help them, I've given them value, I've helped them.

William Dickinson (54:34.988)
I love that. like, how do you, I have my thoughts, but I don't want to like lead the witness. How do you do that? How do you gain that skillset in your particular sector to even be able to be a guide like that?

Christian Brim (54:48.653)
Well, mostly it's experience. you know, over time, like a physician, like if they present with certain symptoms, you're like, well, it's 10 % that it could be this, but 90 % of the time it's going to be that. Right. but, but I think, I think that's the easy part. in my mind, the harder part is getting the

William Dickinson (54:53.998)
Yeah.

William Dickinson (55:08.937)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (55:18.447)
patient, if you will, to understand the underlying condition. Like you're, you're focusing on the wrong things. Like you're, you're, you think it's this, it's not this, it's that.

William Dickinson (55:26.967)
Yeah.

William Dickinson (55:32.568)
I think that could, mean, in a lot of ways, what you're describing is...

Kind of core to the same problem that we, you know, that I shared at the beginning, mindset's also another big buzzword now that Instagram and Tik TOK motivation is, is huge, but like, is, is mindset like you're, you're describing like, Hey, I can tell you all this stuff in the world, but if you don't wrap your mind around it in a way that is either, you know, a sense of humility or, you know, self-inquisition or whatever, like,

It's not going to matter. You know, you can tell like a doctor could tell you like, Hey, you need to like eat better and go exercise. But unless you actually like do that and accept that it's not going to happen anyway. So I think you, you answered in some ways exactly what I was expecting, which was the experience component. And then

Christian Brim (56:17.678)
Exactly.

William Dickinson (56:25.762)
The surprising thing for me was, like it's more being able to, you know, it's being able to communicate. Here's actually where you think it is versus where you want it to be. now you have to take that work back, that inner work back and integrate that into who you are as a person. Because like,

Maybe some people can do this, but like, can't separate my entrepreneurship journey from like my own mental health journey, you know,

Christian Brim (56:52.833)
No, they're not separate. And I mean, I have a whole other show called The Chris Project where we discuss mental health of entrepreneurs and mindset and mental wellness. And I could go on and on about that, but the reality is most entrepreneurs, especially men,

William Dickinson (57:15.82)
Okay.

Christian Brim (57:22.949)
Use the business as a coping mechanism for their mental health, like that to keep from having to deal with the, the, the self work, they, they use the business as a proxy and it's usually disastrous.

William Dickinson (57:36.526)
Hmm.

William Dickinson (57:42.648)
Sounds like it. Yeah, you know, that's where we get into this whole other like unpacking of like I saw this, this cool is like this creative project they do in nature. And it's like, basically just like creatives doing a podcast under trees or in forests. And like one of them said, like the more I heal, the less I want to achieve. And it's not like, not from a, I want to be lazy and not do anything perspective, but it's like the more

Christian Brim (58:02.201)
Hmm.

William Dickinson (58:11.68)
I've noticed that too, is like the more that I heal emotionally and spiritually, the more I have to realize like, crap, I was like driven by this affirmation of being like, they're going to see me and they're going to be wrong about all the times I was bullied or this or that or the other. When in reality, like now it's like, okay, where's my motivation coming from? Because rather than being motivated out of spite or this negative self-worth that I, you know, my, my success or

whatever is validated by, you know, the projection online or the status of my business or whatever, like what actually motivates me from a place of like wholeness and fullness rather than like a sense of lack or something.

Christian Brim (58:57.169)
A hundred percent. No, you, you nailed it. mean, that's most entrepreneurs start a business to, to fix themselves without even realizing that's what they're doing. You know, they'll do it. They'll, they'll define it in terms of like, I want more freedom. want more financial reward. I want to get paid for what I do, what I build. you know,

they'll say all these things but in reality what they're trying to do at the end of the day is fix themselves.

They don't realize it. I didn't realize it. I had no, I mean, it took me decades to figure that out.

William Dickinson (59:39.182)
Yeah.

William Dickinson (59:47.138)
Wild. It's a never-ending journey, isn't it?

Christian Brim (59:47.793)
dude, there's no journey like the entrepreneurial journey. There really isn't. There really isn't. I feel like we can talk for hours. Well, unfortunately we are at times end. yeah, it has. So, so how do people find out more about visual campfire and or Will Dickinson?

William Dickinson (01:00:01.986)
Copy that, yeah, just looked up, it's been an hour. That was fast, thanks for making it.

William Dickinson (01:00:11.426)
Yeah. So right now I'm mainly focused on my personal brand on LinkedIn. So if you look up William Dickinson on LinkedIn, I still have hair in my head shot. So I'm going to update those next week.

Christian Brim (01:00:21.219)
I noticed that. I like the bald look.

William Dickinson (01:00:26.636)
That's thank you. It's a sidebar. mean, people have when you're when you're here's my message to people if you're balding and losing your hair, just shave it. I wish I had done it years later or years sooner people have been it's I should have just ripped off that bandaid but

Christian Brim (01:00:34.693)
100%.

Christian Brim (01:00:40.225)
It looks badass. Absolutely.

William Dickinson (01:00:44.248)
Thank you. I appreciate it. So yeah, William Dickinson on LinkedIn, the visual campfire Instagram and LinkedIn are both sorely neglected at the moment, but it's one thing at a time. And right now in the age of personal brand, I intend to be, you know, the face of, of campfire and all of that. And so I figure I want to build out that ecosystem, you know, my own kind of digital space first, and then I'll start.

picking up the business pages and stuff sooner, but I really want to have a personal touch. the video ranger.

Christian Brim (01:01:17.871)
Well, we already determined your moniker. It's the Video Ranger.

William Dickinson (01:01:26.456)
Well, I'm have to carry that one home with me. So thank you for that. Yeah, so LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me now. If you want to see pictures of my cats and my kids and stuff, I've got William Roy Dickinson on Instagram. I take a lot of nature photography. I love doing that. So that's kind of a hobby of mine.

Christian Brim (01:01:26.725)
You have to think about that one. Yeah, I don't know.

Christian Brim (01:01:42.637)
Nice. Well, listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message and tell us what you'd like to hear and we'll replace Will. Until then, ta-ta for now.

William Dickinson (01:02:00.717)
Nice.