Mastering the Art of Selling | Sir Richard Moore

PROFITABLE TALKS...

In this episode of the Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim speaks with Richard Moore, founder of Art of Sell, about the evolution of sales techniques and the importance of understanding buyer psychology. They discuss the transition from a lifestyle business to a scalable model, the emotional aspects of selling, and the significance of identifying customer needs. Richard shares insights on transformational selling, the concept of 'bleeding neck' problems, and how to effectively communicate value to potential clients. The conversation emphasizes the need for sales professionals to meet buyers where they are and to focus on outcomes rather than just features.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

• Art of Sell focuses on elegant approaches to selling.
• Building a community for sales education is essential.
• Sales is not just about the product, but about the emotional connection.
• Understanding buyer psychology is crucial for effective selling.
• Sales professionals should meet customers at their pain points.
• Transformational selling leads to better customer relationships.
• Content should address customer needs and not just the seller's perspective.
• Identifying 'bleeding neck' problems helps in prioritizing sales efforts.
• Sales is about outcomes, not just transactions.
• The importance of understanding the value of your solution.

Grab the entire Profit First for Creatives Book for FREE: https://christianbrim.com/free-book-download/

Are you ready to pay yourself more… yeah it’s called an S-Corp. ➡️
https://calendly.com/cbrim/free-consultation-clone

Transcript

Christian Brim (00:00.933)
Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Mount Juliet, Tennessee. Sounds like a lovely pastoral place. Thank you for listening. Joining me today, Richard Moore with Art of Cell. Richard, Sir Richard, I don't know why, you're probably not a knight, but.

With the accent, feel like it's obligatory. Welcome to the show.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (00:34.104)
You're not the first, Kristen, thank you firstly, but you're not the first. A lot of people were like, what is it, sir? I had someone the other day ask that and I'm like, well, no, but hey, let's map towards the knighthood. Why not? It's a good goal.

Christian Brim (00:45.551)
Absolutely. I mean, it's like, you know, I never knew exactly what Esquire was. And I see a lot of people, I thought it was legal, like, evidently you can just put Esquire at the end of the name and like, that's, you know, yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (00:56.75)
You can. It will make you look fancy if you just put Esquire at the end. yeah, lot of the, knighthood you can't, but you can become a lord in some ways if you either know the right person or buy a bit of land in a certain place. There are schemes on the internet giving, you know, you're lord of like a square foot in Scotland, but it still counts.

Christian Brim (01:02.256)
Yes.

Christian Brim (01:12.89)
Okay.

Christian Brim (01:18.961)
Well, yeah, I mean, if you're a Lord, you're a Lord. That's it. So tell the listeners, what is art of self?

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (01:22.765)
Indeed.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (01:29.688)
So, Art of Sell is one of my newest creations, about a year old now, and I wanted to go further than sales training and coaching being the Richard Moore Show whenever I help people, and that's really what it's been for the last 10 years before that. So what I decided to build was a community where

Christian Brim (01:44.177)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (01:58.438)
sales education was the focus, but specifically helping people feel comfortable about more elegant approaches to selling. And the reason why it wasn't just about the Richard Moore show is that whilst I can teach some things, it would be wildly arrogant to think I know all things of all the areas of sales and adjacent topics. And so the model is really simple. We have workshops on a Tuesday and on a Thursday we have master classes, but the master classes are run by

absolute superstars. So we've been really kind to bring in guests. I've literally before recording this, I was reading a bit of Hooked by Nir Eyal. And he is he's doing a masterclass in a couple of weeks time, for example. So, you know, there's a lot of these interesting areas of sales. storytelling is popular at the moment. And so we had the sales trainer from Accenture do storytelling. We had a talk last week on

Christian Brim (02:35.121)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (02:56.28)
performance and kind of making sure you push yourself in the right way and so on and that was from an NFL plays a linebacker who'd been in the NFL for seven years and and all the things in between so it's been really fun to construct this because as I'm sure you can appreciate one doesn't half get behind a product when it's not just your own but it's also one you genuinely would use yourself so I really wanted to build this kind of place for people to learn

Christian Brim (03:20.742)
Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (03:24.11)
not just because they think, Richard's cool, we'll learn from him. It's the kind of place where I want to learn as well. And so I'm really thrilled to be able to bring in some spectacular people to come and teach their element of selling. And it's been really fun, know, we're a couple of hundred business owners have joined so far across the different tiers and yeah, it's my baby at the moment and the team's doing a great job and it's, yeah, so it'll be a year in the coming month. So I'm really looking forward to a bit of a celebration there.

Christian Brim (03:51.75)
Well, congratulations. so exactly, okay, maybe you said this and I missed it. You'd been doing sales training and coaching before. What, what, what prompted this change or this birth of this new thing?

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (03:53.624)
Thank you.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (04:03.596)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (04:10.094)
Such a good question. So to give you background, we'll help answer the question. So 22 years ago, I started selling in the city in London, and I did 10 years in corporate all the way up to sales director. Then 2014, I left and started my own business. And for 10 years, it was selling, coaching and training. And always I was needed to be present. And five years ago, I built this thing called Belinting Client Accelerator, which is hundreds of companies. And I again show up and have to teach them every week.

Christian Brim (04:30.906)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (04:38.894)
or I should be faced to get to teach them every week. And so you can appreciate where this is going. It's like, well, that's, it's wonderful. But I also don't want to have to be present all the time because of course running a lifestyle business, which is what it was for the, it's been for the past 10 years up until a year ago is wonderful because you call the shots. You'd have to worry about other people. You make loads of money. It's all on you. But it's nice to be able to

Christian Brim (04:49.105)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (05:05.878)
say, hey, let's have other people provide the product too. And so I'm essentially trying to build in a bit of redundancy there rather than me always having to be present for every element. There's a team that does all the different elements that this bigger offer has. And what I really love is that the actual delivery now isn't just Richard Moore all the time. And I think it's just a more robust product that also has the

Christian Brim (05:27.077)
Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (05:31.222)
opportunity to have a bit more legacy to it as well as opposed to well, if I can't show up for it, well, that's the end of that. so I'm in my mid 40s now, Christian, you you get to that point where you think it, you know, you've to consider what the next 10 years look like and so on. And it's nice to be able to have fun building something in this way instead.

Christian Brim (05:46.776)
you.

Christian Brim (05:51.856)
You're preaching to the choir. I have lots of gray hair. I don't know if you color your hair. Your hair is awesome, by the way. But you don't have any grays.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (05:57.519)
Thank you, you're so kind. I have a lot. No, I have a stack of grey. The day we had our first child, it all started coming through, but the red is persistent and you can barely see it. There's white in there too, so I'm getting there, but even my grandfather had red hair when he was 95, so I think it will stay.

Christian Brim (06:16.995)
I love it. Okay, so I think you hit a key point and you use the term lifestyle. I don't know who coined that phrase and the etymology of lifestyle business, but I think that's a polite way of saying you created a job for yourself. And I say that not to disparage people that have lifestyle businesses because

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (06:29.281)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (06:38.381)
Absolutely.

Christian Brim (06:45.339)
For most people that are doing that, it is the better alternative than working for someone else. But you pointed out very brilliantly, I think, that if you don't show up, the business doesn't happen. If you get hit by a bus, the business is gone. And that is, by definition, a job.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (06:53.952)
Indeed.

Christian Brim (07:12.017)
Creating something that exists outside of you is a special challenge that most entrepreneurs don't grow to. It takes a certain level of maturity to say, and it doesn't even have to be motivated by like, well, you know, I want some of my time back. I want some flexibility back. It doesn't even have to be motivated by that, but the ability to see the business is not an extension of you.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (07:22.85)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (07:41.962)
I have another podcast, called the Chris project where we discuss entrepreneurial mindset and, mental health and that, that we talk a lot about that there where, entrepreneurs get, so wrapped up in the, their personal identity, being the business, that it, keeps them from.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (07:52.11)
Mm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (08:05.166)
Mmm

Christian Brim (08:09.617)
separating themselves from the business. And I know this from experience myself and I have seen it happen. But I just say all that to say that congratulations on taking that next step, which, you know, there's nothing wrong with staying where you were, but you understand now that there can be something better.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (08:23.448)
Thank you.

Hmm

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (08:30.722)
Yeah, and I'm fortunate that I had 10 years of working for someone else and building teams and being part of an ecosystem that was much larger than I. And just frankly, I really enjoyed the decade of just me. And you start getting to a point where you think, of course I could keep going. And there's something really lovely about how lean it is where it's just you.

Christian Brim (08:48.517)
Yeah, absolutely.

Christian Brim (08:56.795)
Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (08:57.582)
But was was it you're right, you know, it's partly that I was I was making sure things were safer. It is incredibly unsafe to be an employee. But also, unless you know what you're doing, or work it out, at least swiftly, it's unsafe to be essentially a freelancer looking after just yourself because anything could happen like like you rightly say. And so it's been it just got to that point where I thought, oh, I'm starting to miss building something with a team. And you know, when you're

this is possibly a reason why you do a podcast. And certainly the reason why I do the art of sale is when you're around good people, it just feels really good. And when you then around good people that also have a common interest, it's fantastic. And so building this little baby has been really lovely. And it's not just, it's me and everyone does things for me. I've, you know, we've got like a team and we feel like we're all kind of sitting at the table together and it's just, it's just fun. It's a nice thing to do.

Christian Brim (09:32.369)
Mm.

Christian Brim (09:37.275)
Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (09:52.695)
I do like the new challenge. There are moments obviously when you think, I was doing so well, why? Why would I go and play with it? But actually it's in the longer run, it's just such a good move. Just nice to know people like that.

Christian Brim (10:00.762)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (10:06.159)
No, there is a, there's definitely an allure to that. I call it the consultant model, like, you know, where you show up, for a day and make, you know, four or five grand and, know, you don't need to work with a lot of people. and, and there is a lot of alert of that, for sure. but it, at the end of the day, it's still a glorified job.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (10:14.936)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (10:33.906)
And it's one you have a lot of autonomy and you control, but you know, if you don't show up, you don't get paid. And that's not essentially a business.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (10:34.445)
Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (10:40.364)
Yeah, the marketing, yeah, it's not. And I think a lot of people have a delusion that it is. it's like, if you're solo, you're a freelancer who it's almost like you moonlight as the freelancer, but your main job is selling. That's actually what you're doing. And it's, is in my humble opinion, laughable when people, you know, dub themselves CEO.

Christian Brim (10:55.301)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, no.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (11:05.922)
And it's like, you're on your own. you're not seat. Where's the rest of your board then? And it's just ridiculous. And I think a lot of people have these delusions of grandeur. It's like, you're a freelancer. Just that's cool. It's okay. You know, but I just think there's, you know, but sometimes it's the margins are wonderful, as you rightly say, but it's just something really stimulating in finding new challenge. And I think, I like, you know, if you like, if you conquer something, sometimes it's like, okay, cool chapter done. Let's see what's next.

Christian Brim (11:17.477)
Right. Absolutely.

Christian Brim (11:24.655)
Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (11:35.694)
What we don't want to do is, or some do, but I personally don't want to just do the same thing, even if there's iterations of it over the years, I want it just to, it just felt right, you know, to try something different.

Christian Brim (11:48.154)
I love it. I let's move to sales because that's one of my favorite. I, I would self identify as a salesperson where a lot of people would find that moniker, shmarmy or slimy and like people don't want to be identified as a salesperson. I think I'm quite good at it. Actually. I think that, the, art of sale.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (11:51.47)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (12:05.549)
Yes.

Christian Brim (12:16.245)
is is a fascinating one because primarily it's the art, the, the, you're, you're dealing with the science and the art of human behavior. and I think that I'm just going to tell you my thoughts and then I want to get your opinion on it. I think you said that the, the entrepreneur is really a salesman freelancing as a, a,

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (12:26.03)
And then.

Christian Brim (12:46.129)
freelancing as a freelancer. I don't know exactly how you said, okay, yes, thank you. so yeah, I think that in most businesses of sizes, say up to a million in revenue, you are the best salesperson. Like no one can sell your product, your company, your service better than you can.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (12:49.052)
A salesperson moonlighting as a freelancer.

Christian Brim (13:14.499)
I think most entrepreneurs that go into business have some sales capacity, innate in them, but maybe not experience. There are some that like have trouble that I've run across of like, I just am not comfortable selling, but I think that's the minority. I think at the end of the day,

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (13:36.251)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Christian Brim (13:44.004)
Sales is emotional. and everybody buys based upon emotion and then they fill in the gaps with rationalization. And I think the biggest mistake I've made and I've seen other entrepreneurs make is they feel like they've got to fill in that.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (13:46.339)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (14:12.621)
rationalization gap rather than to stay in the emotional. Like, and that manifests itself by like talking through the sale. Like, you know, you're getting these, these buying signals, these emotional words from a prospect and, like, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta do something more. I've got to tell them how good the features and the, you know, benefits of my, of my product or service. it's like, no, you really don't.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (14:17.326)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (14:42.353)
What are your thoughts?

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (14:42.582)
No, exactly. No one ever bought an iPhone because of how many megapixels the camera has. The theory shows it's like maybe 8 % or something like that of people buy specifically for the thing it's made of. The same with a Ferrari. You buy a Ferrari because you think you'll have more sex.

and it helps your ego. You typically don't buy it because you love the way they design this particular element of it. People don't care that much. the iPhone isn't objectively the best phone on the planet. It's the one that's the coolest and that's why people buy it. And you're absolutely spot on with that. I think that back on your original point here, this kind of art of sell concept and what people really are looking for is a pursuit.

of competence, because with competence, you move away from the slightly unfulfilling side or style of selling. So when I first started in 2003, I was cold calling and it was a hundred dial a day kind of job. I wasn't allowed to sit down. Imagine boiler room. It was basically that. And it's, you offset competency with volume. So the pursuit of

Christian Brim (15:33.446)
Mm.

Christian Brim (15:51.611)
Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (15:58.403)
Competency is really important to people because they consistently express how wonderful it feels when they kind of unlock those lines or those new ways of looking at things. And I do love it when someone says something like, I didn't realize I could say it like that. And it just seems to work better. And they feel like they're...

Christian Brim (16:19.185)
Mmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (16:22.262)
A lot of people know what to do. It's like get the right person, tell them the right thing, get a sale, but they don't want to do that because that feels awful and awkward. But when you load them with the right lines and things to say, or the right approaches or methods, suddenly they can at least see themselves do it. And then when it clicks, it's just beautiful, isn't it? know, when people feel, really, it's not just that I'm willing to do this now, it's that I can do this and actually enjoy it because it's communication.

much like if we look at the broader sense of selling, if you like, much like when we're having a lovely time with someone at a party or whatever, just getting on and chatting, we're actually selling there in that we're connected with that person. And it's just that the ask is often different. The ask in that regard is, it sounds weird, but the ask is actually just spending more time with that person or arranging to hang out again or something like that. And we'll persuade them of an idea. And people love that stuff. And I just think when people...

Christian Brim (16:59.824)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (17:11.611)
Sure.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (17:20.526)
like you said, get the psychology down a bit more and understand that kind of world. It's not just liberating, but it's also fascinating for people. think they, I'm yet to find someone who doesn't find this stuff stimulating because it's about people and that's some, that they are a person themselves and so on. So it's just a, it's a really wonderful world. It's far more than just, like you say, logical, rational, transaction based interactions, there's far more to it.

Christian Brim (17:35.076)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (17:46.948)
Yeah. And right next to selling is pricing. Like that's another one that I find absolutely fascinating, but that's not the topic we're discussing. I, will, when I, I did a, a training program several years ago, around, consulting and, it was not what I thought it was when I signed up for it.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (17:50.701)
in

Christian Brim (18:15.963)
But one of the, one of the key takeaways I took from that experience, especially as it was in regards to sales is this idea that you had to release your expectations before you started the sales call or the sales meeting, whatever. Because if you have expectations that generates feelings.

And it directs the conversation in a way that you want it to go. And that ultimately, like your example of a dinner party is great. Like if, if you went in with the expectation at a dinner party of like, I've got a schedule of a follow-up meeting with one of these guests, right? Like that's in my head. it changes the whole dynamic, right? As opposed to.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (19:05.548)
Yes. Yes.

Mm.

Christian Brim (19:13.667)
I'm just going to go and I'm going to enjoy the experience and whatever happens happens. But that's not the way most people approach sales, right? Like there's especially with business owners, they're, they're like, man, I've got to close a sale. haven't closed a sale this week or this month or whatever. And there's this pressure and this expectation. And it, it, it muddies the emotional waters, if you will.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (19:18.382)
Mmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (19:37.913)
Certainly. I fully agree. And a really great look at it is to say, I don't know what they'll buy yet. Because even if I have one offer, everyone buys that thing for different reasons. Back to the iPhone example, some people genuinely do buy it because of all the cameras and that. I've never bought a phone for the camera. I don't care about photography enough. Some people buy it for the IO, other people buy it because...

Christian Brim (19:46.885)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (19:54.017)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (20:05.462)
or their friends get it, buy it, and they want to fit in. So we're all buying it for different reasons. And what's so interesting about what you're saying is that the prevailing way that people sell, and they don't even realize they're doing it a lot of the time, is they sell the way that they want to sell, as opposed to the way that buyer wants to buy. And there's a wild difference there. What we want to do is for them to go, cool, I'm on board, I'll follow every step. Whereas the buyer will be often a lot more meandering.

Christian Brim (20:21.937)
Mmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (20:34.082)
And it's our job to of course, to work with that. So I like the idea of going in saying, I don't know what or how they'll buy yet, but should the opportunity arise, I can gently steer into that and I can certainly prescribe a solution, but it starts with being human with someone. So we need to establish a proper connection and take it from there. So yeah, you're quite right. And if we, if we go in with a massive bias towards selling in a particular way, often that falls, fails as well, even if that.

is an inbound lead purely because we might be so intent on selling a particular feature or a particular area and miss the fact that they're really keen on something else, you know, and I just think you're not buying it. You're the one selling it. They're the one buying it. So it needs to be based on what they're after. Yeah. But, that is often a bit of a problem for those who aren't selling someone else's product, they're selling their own because they're so desperate to indulge.

Christian Brim (21:20.174)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (21:34.26)
in remunerating facts and details about how cool this part is, because it's their baby and they spent ages tinkering on it and polishing it and the other guy doesn't care and they never ask. They're interested in the bit they're interested in and we need to uncover

Christian Brim (21:47.76)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (21:52.294)
Well, and I also think a lot of entrepreneurs do that because they lack confidence, especially starting out like they they feel like they have to establish their bona fides. Like I let me tell you why this is such great. You know what all goes into it right? But to your point, they don't care. I think I think there's something to what you said around. They sell it a certain way or the way they want to sell it.

I would, I would add to that, that, potentially they sell it the way that they buy it. They buy things. Right. So I had a conversation, with, one of our salespeople recently. And, I said, you know, it's clear to me from what you're saying that you don't see the value of XYZ.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (22:28.844)
in day.

Christian Brim (22:47.001)
And she was kind of taken aback. was like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, well, just the way you talk. I, I, you're not making the connection for the value that, that like, you can see it and you're the type of person that will not, sell something to somebody, something they don't need. Right. And, and so this

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (22:59.683)
Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (23:10.744)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (23:14.381)
ability to make that value connection for yourself is inhibiting your ability to sell because that's the way you buy. And so the conversation was around like, okay, how can I help you understand and believe in the value for you? Like, I'm not talking about right. What the client or the prospect thinks. And we worked through it and I think we found a solution, but it showed me the

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (23:23.955)
Mmm. Mmm.

Christian Brim (23:44.282)
The bias that we bring to the table when we sell is our own personal bias about how we buy things. I think honestly, the reason why I'm so good at selling is because I'm an easy sell. I'm an easy mark. My wife tells me all the time, like, you buy anything. And I'm like,

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (23:47.756)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (23:58.433)
you

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (24:06.19)
If it's in the right category, I'm the same. an easy sell because I love to be taken through that process. But I think you're so right. And a lot of people haven't even considered another person buying the thing they're trying to sell. They've not considered the different many angles of attack on, so to speak, in terms of the benefits of their service.

And what's more important is they've not considered the different use cases other than just they're looking at through the lens of how they buy it maybe. And it's stunning how many different uses and interactions there might be with a service or a product that are overlooked by the salesperson. They should really spend some time considering that.

and it just opens things up a lot more. And yeah, it's just that classic thing of like, ask some questions, find out what they're into, find out a bit about them and now you can match it far better. Otherwise you're banging on about, you're nailing the pitch on this bit over here, but they don't care. They're always stressing this thing over there.

Christian Brim (25:13.475)
Right. They checked out. Well, when I started my business 28 years ago, I actually bought a franchise. Yes, there were such things as accounting franchises. There were actually three different ones that I could choose from. Part of the franchise training, as you can imagine, because you're dealing with accountants, is sales training. Right. And so like we would we had a script that we had to memorize.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (25:22.382)
Hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (25:34.114)
Mm. Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (25:41.656)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (25:43.888)
which was interesting. I'd never done any formal sales training, like, okay, memorize this script. You don't have to do it verbatim. And in fact, you shouldn't do it verbatim because you don't want it to sound stilted, but you don't want to go in and not know what you're going to say. Okay. And then we would exactly. And so then we went through role playing and then we actually went out on the streets of Orange County.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (26:01.624)
So, got to know it, but don't walk through it, yeah.

Christian Brim (26:12.303)
California and cold, cold, and, went through the process. Like they, they, you know, actually walked us through the whole model. but one of the things they pointed out is like, okay, you've got a script, but you know, two thirds or more of the sales presentation has to be, them speaking. Like you have to ask questions, right?

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (26:15.47)
Mm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (26:28.109)
Mm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (26:37.603)
Yes.

Christian Brim (26:41.841)
Fast forward to today. I, uh, my business coach, uh, who his business is helping other coaches. Um, and he sent me some recordings of his sales calls and I was, I was fascinated because 90 % of the conversation is him helping this prospect.

clarifying, get into the emotion of solving their problem. Like, and, and, and yeah, there are questions eventually about like, okay, so what exactly do you do? Right? Yeah. Like, but it's a small, small part of the conversation. It's, all around. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (27:13.23)
Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (27:28.27)
It's almost incidental, isn't it? Right at the end, it's almost like, I mean, well, it's a natural progression that you'd buy the thing, but it's almost like that's not the point of the conversation. It's uncovering and consulting and working on where this person's set of needs are. That sounds like it's been done very well.

Christian Brim (27:49.258)
Yeah, I think he's one of the best I've ever met at it. The other thing I would point out is you talked about the multiple ways that people buy or the need that they may perceive. I think one of the fundamental flaws of small businesses in general is they don't have a clear understanding

of the problem that they solve as articulated by the customer. Right? Right? They don't have a clear understand that, you know, you're a plumber and you went out there and you started to plum and you know, that's what you do. I fix sinks, I unclog toilets, you know, whatever. But

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (28:25.432)
So yeah, let's head.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (28:39.554)
Mm.

Christian Brim (28:45.449)
Never really understanding what exactly is the problem that you're solving for them in their terms. the, the best example I ever heard was, know, like if someone buys a drill, they're not buying a drill. They're buying a whole, they need, their need is a whole, they need a whole, right? But we don't ever. Right.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (29:07.83)
Indeed. Yeah, we could even extrapolate that their need is in fact maybe a picture on the wall and the memory next to the bed or something like that. You're quite right.

Christian Brim (29:17.007)
Right, but we don't make that switch to look at it from their perspective, to your point.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (29:19.118)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, if people crack open a few sales books, they start uncovering these matrices of like the different stages of buyers or the kind of where they might be. And you see this classic one of they're unaware, these buyers, or they're problem aware, or they're solution aware. And it's massively flawed.

Christian Brim (29:43.174)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (29:47.223)
that is. And the reason why is because it's missing this, the when the majority of people actually are, which is being symptom aware. So if I may give an example, if I have said this to someone the other day, and I think it does it does it explains it well. If I had a chesty cough, and like a chesty throat and a wheezy cough. I don't know what that is, but that my symptoms. If I go and see a doctor, an expert,

Christian Brim (29:58.226)
Yes, yes.

Christian Brim (30:14.213)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (30:16.45)
which is transposed to consultant or coach or whatever, they can say, you have bronchitis. That's the problem. And I'm not problem aware typically. I don't know I have bronchitis. I know I have problems, but I know what it is. I haven't labeled it. And then beyond that still, I don't know that a particular type of antibiotics used across four weeks, twice a day is the solution. And so many people map to

Christian Brim (30:29.328)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (30:46.51)
buyers that are solution aware. And that's cool if you have an avalanche of inbound traffic and it's all really clear, but the average certainly freelancer certainly does not. And so when you meet them where they are, which is always aware of symptoms, you uncover, you connect so much better and you made the point really well, it's using their language and like the way they would say it. So sometimes if we're,

Christian Brim (31:06.053)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (31:13.489)
Mmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (31:15.286)
a real expert at our craft, we will have a really eloquent way of describing the symptoms that they're experiencing. But that doesn't land, that's again not meeting them where they are. The better way to do it, and I'm talking now about say content, if we're gonna write a post and appeal to the right people in the right way, we need to meet them at symptoms, not problems or solutions, but also meet them using their vernacular. So when, I gave a really good example, I think years ago I had,

Christian Brim (31:35.857)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (31:44.535)
someone came to me and said, Richard, all my friends think I'm crushing it on LinkedIn, but I'm stone cold broke. And I could have put that more elegantly perhaps, but I shouldn't because the way the person stumbles and trips over explaining it, like, I don't know what it is, it's kind of like rattley sound in my chest, isn't what a doctor would describe my symptoms as, but it's how I do it, so it's relatable. And it's just so fascinating that

Christian Brim (31:53.328)
Mmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (32:13.048)
when we meet them at symptoms, we get in their head and that makes people think to themselves, yes, that's exactly how I feel. They're certainly not wandering around going, I need X type of antibiotics because I'm pretty sure I've got bronchitis right now based on these symptoms. And I just think that's overlooked. We're giving the non-experts too much credit for what they might or might not know.

Christian Brim (32:36.515)
A hundred percent. No, no, you're exactly right. Like I, in, in my business, of, accounting, you, they're, they have symptoms. They have no idea what the root causes are and they don't have an idea of the solution and they don't really care. They just want Perry Marshall, author of 80 20 marketing sales. he put it brilliantly. He calls it bleeding neck.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (32:51.054)
Mm.

Christian Brim (33:05.685)
And it's like you don't care about anything when your neck is bleeding. You want it to stop. And that's a symptom and that's where you have to meet them. Like don't complicate it.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (33:06.157)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (33:13.325)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (33:19.522)
Yes. And the other extreme is where people fall into trouble. It's just because someone has a problem or a symptom of a problem doesn't mean it needs to be fixed. have plenty of, I'm sure you have a wonderful life, but just like me, I'm sure you have problems, everyday problems. You know, it's like a squeaky door in a cupboard or some issue somewhere that you are like more than happy to tolerate. know, yes, you could hire someone to do a job for you, but it's like,

Christian Brim (33:31.76)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (33:44.523)
yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (33:48.235)
it genuinely is a 20 second job and it's just not worth it. Whereas other things are bleeding neck problems. And I think that sometimes people are selling, unless they're selling them in the right way, they're selling the thing that is not a bleeding neck problem. And people are like, you know what, it's way more hassle to change than just to continue with this. Of course, that's not the same for everyone, but it's something to be clear on. And yeah, I remember when someone first used that term with me, bleeding neck, and I was like, that's it.

That's how you describe it. And like, we go hard on that, that particular symptom or problem. And, and people are like, thank you, someone who gets it. That's exactly what I'm going through. It's quite, quite interesting as well, isn't it? That when you find the bleeding neck problem, often, often people aren't, they don't appreciate that others might be experiencing it as well. It's quite amazing. They're like, they're like, Oh, wow. So you've seen this before. And so when you have this air of

Christian Brim (34:24.921)
Yes. Yes.

Christian Brim (34:40.582)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (34:46.414)
Oh, you're like everyone else. Everyone always says this kind of thing. And I know what to do. That's why we go to doctors. Because it's it's the unknown for you and we're panicked and worried about our bleeding neck. And doctors are like, oh, it's fine. Cues of people have this problem all the time and I know what to do. that's why I have a thing called the doctor method because it plays to that process so well. When you go to an expert, it's because culturally you've decided in your head that that person.

Christian Brim (34:55.013)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (35:16.408)
we'll just know what to do. And when they follow through with knowing what to do, we naturally position ourselves as someone looking up to them as our expert. And of course then when they prescribe a solution, we're like, okay. And it's so much easier to sell when we position ourselves as an authority in that particular space, which we help people with.

Christian Brim (35:26.577)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (35:39.993)
Yeah. And back to your, your initial analogy, with the physician, like you, you don't care that the problem is bronchitis. You don't need to name it. and you don't really, you don't care about the solution. You want to stop wheezing, right? You want the symptom to go away, right?

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (35:49.454)
precisely.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (35:56.569)
Yeah. For so many people. So I think one of the best examples of this is, if I've got a flat tire, I need the mechanic to fit the flat tire. So that you've used the con, look at how people use content nowadays. It's a blind spot for so many that they will talk about their tools so much. And it would be like a mechanic.

Christian Brim (36:14.853)
Mm-hmm.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (36:17.506)
selling me on how great their air compressor is. I don't care. I need my tire to be fixed. And I had a chat with someone. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like outcomes. That's what I'm after. And I sat and had a conversation with someone about this recently. And they sell a very popular thing at the moment. They sell personal branding services to companies. So their job is to pitch founders and managing directors of

Christian Brim (36:23.203)
Right, I've got the best jack in the world. I could lift 6,000 tons with this thing.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (36:45.998)
typically five to 10 mil turnovers, so not massive, but big enough they can pay and small enough they can get a hold of the top person. And all their content is selling their audience on the magic of personal branding. And they are getting a false positive in the form of all their peers, personal branding specialists, going, well done, totally agree with that. Those five points on the value of personal brand, you nailed that.

Meanwhile, all of these managing directors or CEOs are going personal branding is so not for me then because I'm not interested in that. And meanwhile, they're looking at they have another agenda, which is for some reason, no one seems to care about us. So I just don't get any visibility. I even I get some like, mean, what do need to do? The product's great, but no one seems to care. That's their version of needing personal branding, but they could not care less what it's called. They want the outcome and

Christian Brim (37:39.941)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (37:44.0)
Once that's unlocked, it's suddenly like, I should probably try and speak and market more to the buyer and what they're thinking about rather than my peer group because otherwise I just get claps and no sales.

Christian Brim (37:57.872)
I that that's brilliant. I, I, just reminded me of this story I heard way back in my, my beginnings of when the tractor was invented, they were trying to sell it to farmers and the farmer had no interest in this machine. And they said, well, what if the sort of the salesperson

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (38:14.433)
Mmm.

Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (38:22.701)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (38:27.095)
reframed it and said, what if I could give you a horse that could produce twice as much and you don't have to feed it? Would you be interested?

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (38:40.781)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (38:42.105)
Right? Because they reframed it in terms that they understood as opposed to, I'm trying to explain this new technology to you.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (38:46.51)
Exactly.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (38:50.796)
Yeah, yeah. Because no one cares. Like I said, it's about 8 % of people, again, user Ferrari, for instance, or Lamborghini, because they originally made tractors, weirdly. You know, there are about 8 % of people who actually care about the manufacturing and how it was built and you know the type, they're like, do you know what, I know it doesn't matter too much, but...

How does it work? I'm actually kind of interested because I'm just a geek for it. But the average person is like, buying the outcome. And if it looks like a tractor, then cool. All I want is to save on wages and have it done quicker. That sounds good to me. It's quite amazing how it's obvious when we learn this fact, but until then it just seems it's a bit of a mystery to many because it is intuitive, I think, for most when they come into sales to think.

Christian Brim (39:15.579)
Right.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (39:39.564)
I just have to explain how stuff works and maybe that will work. And it's way more nuanced than that, isn't it?

Christian Brim (39:43.462)
Right. No, no. And that my example speaks to the second part of the equation that I think most business owners fail is so the first is they don't have a clear understanding of the problem in terms of the customer prospect would describe it. The second part is they don't understand the value of their solution, right? Which requires you to put yourself in the shoes of the buyer.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (40:09.046)
Mmm

Christian Brim (40:13.187)
as well. going back to the farmer analogy, like the tractor doesn't know what that is, but I absolutely know the value of having a horse that produces twice and doesn't eat like that. I get.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (40:25.868)
Hmm Hmm and I think a lot longer term implications aren't explored enough by people a lot of consultants and and a lot of coaches as well have this thing of they they still look at their the value they're offering in terms of the moment when they teach a thing and That being useful in a knowledge based

point of focus, what they're not considering is you've now given that information to someone, you've taught them antifish essentially, they can now use that in perpetuity and downstream that's potentially millions in money saved. So we need to remember that the implication of having this or indeed as part of the process of selling the implication of not addressing this problem is huge compared to what we're talking about in that moment and you know,

Christian Brim (41:06.779)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (41:19.502)
Buying a tractor is like you say is it's not it's not just a horse. don't have to feed and a field that's been plowed or whatever it's That times the number of days in which you run a feet run a farm and like that extrapolates wildly and that's so overlooked and I often say that to certainly to coaches who help with people around their mindset, you know, you get everything from burnout coaches to performance coaches and everything in between and

Christian Brim (41:31.973)
Yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (41:48.963)
They often think along these terms and I say, you know, remember, this is transformative stuff. This potentially changes the trajectory of someone's life. This is not four weeks of coaching. This is a new level for that in person's entire existence. And, at least you feel it should be, right? And so think when we come in, when we meet them with a transformation and that's why, why, you know, it's so crucial that people have

This is a big takeaway, I think, of this part of our discussion is, if people have a sense of what is my big transformation that I'm giving that person, that should light you up. And in turn, that will make you feel excited about helping someone, you know, in whatever problem they've got.

Christian Brim (42:32.461)
Absolutely. And, you should try and explain that to accountants because, last year I, I, I, was having this conversation with my team. I'm like, you know, we don't sell accounting, bookkeeping, payroll, tax preparation. Those are all features and benefits. Like that. That's not what we sell. What we sell is the transformation of the feelings around money.

They go from being anxious, worried, stressed to calm, peace of mind. Right? That's what you sell. And like you're, you're getting these accountants like, I, don't get it. Like, how do you fit that in the spreadsheet? Right? Like, I mean, like, and they're not doing the selling. So I'm not, I'm not trying to turn them into salespeople, but I'm like, at the end of the day, you need to understand that you're selling the transformation.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (43:11.298)
Hmm

Christian Brim (43:32.559)
These are the tools that you use to do that, but they don't care about the tools. They do not care. They want the results.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (43:37.084)
Mm. Nice.

Yeah, that's simply the device. In fact, one of my, a client that joined one of my programs at the start of August is an ex accountant. She was, she was at PWC and she now teaches accountants how to pass their exams. First time is one of her big things because she helps them with the structure of like learning and all that kind of thing. And exams for accountancy is not, are not easy. They don't get passed first time all the time. And, and it was the same with her, you know, she won her first sale recently.

On my post today, I did a screenshot of her saying, first installment, Ian, it was really exciting. And the whole thing has been about literally that is, know, although the offering is slightly different, it's still that she's showing them that sure, the money will be saved, but the time too, and the anxiety and the stress and this liberation that comes from having a system and a process. And I, one step removed, did the same with her to onboard her.

Christian Brim (44:30.587)
Yes, yes.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (44:38.99)
You know, I didn't talk about how it was cost effective knowing that she was an accounting mind. I still stayed in that space of you just need a system and a process, which ironically actually suited her ideally thinking like, well, I'm not just going to touch link. yeah. And that emotionally was a massive unlock for her because she said, you know, this has just been this weird thing I kind of inhabit. And now I have a sense of.

Christian Brim (44:52.985)
Yes, she's all about systems and processes. Yeah.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (45:05.55)
do X, N, Y, and then Z and knowing what inputs I have to do each day. And now I'm outputting results and it's a beautiful thing, but it's always about, you those, those things that they are going to remove fears and worries and those wonderful feelings they're to get when they get returned. The accounting side of things, it's just the device through which they achieve those transformations. So it's fun to play with that.

Christian Brim (45:24.133)
Yes. And they don't need to understand it. They don't need to value it. yeah. Richard, sir, Richard, this has been a fascinating conversation. I hope that it has ended your week. Well, how do, perfect. So how, how do people find out more about art of sale if they're interested?

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (45:32.814)
No, that's all.

Thank you.

You nailed it.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (45:47.534)
Yeah, so if you go to Art of Sell, S-E-L-L dot co, you can find us right there or on LinkedIn. So how they do it is weird, it? LinkedIn.com slash in slash Richard Jamesmore. know, people don't always call me sir, they sometimes call me 007.

Christian Brim (46:03.153)
That's even better. mean, like Sir Richard James Moore sounds, I mean, that just rolls off the tongue.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (46:11.022)
I have King's names in my family always, so that's why I ask chaps have them. But yeah, so, and that's how you found me. And of course, there's more details on the profile. But as a thank you to anyone listening, I'm more than happy to answer any questions. And I loved it. Thank you, Kristin. That's lovely end to my week and month.

Christian Brim (46:30.061)
Absolutely. Well, listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you'd like what you've heard, please share the podcast, rate the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear and we'll get rid of Richard. Until then, ta-ta for now.

Richard Moore - Art Of Sell (46:48.825)
Thanks so much.