Unlocking Creativity: The Business of Art | Miriam Schulman

PROFITABLE TALKS...

In this episode of the Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim interviews artist and coach Miriam Schulman. They discuss the intersection of creativity and business, emphasizing the importance of marketing and mindset for artists. Miriam shares her journey from Wall Street to becoming a successful artist and coach, highlighting the necessity of adapting to market demands while maintaining artistic integrity. The conversation delves into the psychology of pricing, the beliefs surrounding money, and the importance of believing in oneself and one's customers. Listeners are encouraged to embrace their creativity as a vital business skill and to understand the value of their work in the marketplace.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

• Miriam Schulman emphasizes the importance of marketing for artists.
• Creativity is essential for success in business.
• Artists often believe they are exceptions to business rules, but they are not.
• Mindset shifts are crucial for creative entrepreneurs.
• Financial independence is a driving force for many artists.
• Beliefs about money can significantly impact business success.
• Pricing affects perceived value in the art market.
• Understanding customer psychology is key to selling art.
• You can improve your marketing without changing your artistic style.
• True artists can care about money and still maintain their integrity.

Grab the entire Profit First for Creatives Book for FREE: https://christianbrim.com/free-book-download/

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.976)
Welcome to another edition of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Odinville, Alabama. Maybe there's a large Norse population down there, don't know. Welcome to the show, Miriam Schulman of Inspiration Place. Welcome, Miriam.

Miriam Schulman (00:31.342)
Well, thanks for having me, Christian. I'm so excited to be here with you and your one listener in Alabama.

Christian Brim (00:37.518)
Well, I'm sure there are other listeners in Alabama, but that's, uh, the, the town that had one. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I, uh, actually started doing that just on a whim, uh, looking at the, uh, podcasts, download statistics and finding the one listener. Like, and it's, funny all the different places. Uh, it's, I only do the U S we actually get about 20 to 30 % of our listeners.

Miriam Schulman (00:41.9)
and other listeners.

Christian Brim (01:06.102)
overseas, is strange to me, but, whatever. Miriam, excuse me. Tell me about the inspiration place.

Miriam Schulman (01:15.502)
Well, the Inspiration Place is my podcast and as well as my platform for the right teaching coach and the Inspiration Place is listened to in over 100 countries. we also have, I think maybe only 60 % of our listeners are in the US. So.

Christian Brim (01:34.528)
Okay. What topics do you teach and discuss on?

Miriam Schulman (01:40.974)
Yeah, so we mostly focus on marketing and mindset for creative entrepreneurs. So when I first started the podcast, there may have been some more episodes with creative process in it because then I was teaching online classes, but now it's focused just on the business side because that's my strength.

Christian Brim (01:46.126)
Mmm.

Mmm, you're speaking my language.

Christian Brim (01:59.202)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (02:08.493)
How long have you been doing it?

Miriam Schulman (02:10.318)
The podcast since 2018, being an artist since 2000. So I'm coming up at 25 years of making a living from my art.

Christian Brim (02:22.889)
Impressive. what is your medium of choice? Watercolor. My daughter is an oil figurative painter. I'll give you her handle afterwards. You can go peruse. It's not for everybody. Although I do have a whole bunch in my house, but that's.

Miriam Schulman (02:26.414)
watercolor.

Miriam Schulman (02:36.396)
Yeah, I can't wait to check out her art.

Miriam Schulman (02:45.77)
I hope she doesn't listen to the podcast. okay.

Christian Brim (02:47.809)
she's been on the podcast. and I know. So, so, my daughter is 28. She decided right out of college that she was going to pursue a career as, as an artist and as a father, and an entrepreneur, I asked a lot of questions. and her response eventually was, don't know dad, I just want to paint what I want to paint. I want to make what I want to make. And I'm like, fine.

That's as long as you understand that people won't necessarily buy it just because you make it. so, yeah. But, you know, the business aspect of the creative endeavor, whether that's painting or podcasting or video production, that's what we talk about here. And it takes both. Otherwise, it's just a hobby. Right. I mean,

Miriam Schulman (03:43.811)
Yeah, and by the way, by the way, I mean, what you just said is just because you make it doesn't mean people want to buy it. That's true of every business. There's so many, there's so many business owners who, you know, they have an idea and okay, that's great. You know, but make sure you know you have customers for it. So artists, you're not special. You have to follow the same rules as everybody else. We all have to create things that.

Christian Brim (03:52.269)
100%.

Christian Brim (04:02.452)
No, I mean, I'm...

Miriam Schulman (04:12.728)
people want. And it does not make you not a real artist.

Christian Brim (04:15.041)
Yes, I mean, no, but your point is very profound that it's all businesses. It's not just artists. think artists...

Miriam Schulman (04:25.356)
All businesses, but artists like to think they're the exception because they like to think, well, I'm not a real artist if I'm making what other people want. And if you go back in time, like most famous artists in the world, let's just say Michelangelo, well, he was painting what the Pope wanted him to paint. That's what he was getting paid to do. So artists have to follow the same business rules as everybody else.

Christian Brim (04:45.431)
That is correct. That is correct.

Christian Brim (04:52.257)
That is correct and I will tell you from lots of experience that if you make something that is very valuable, it doesn't matter. It only matters if somebody wants it. And that axiom I use, you gotta sell them what they want, not what they need, is a true statement. 25 years of earning a living as an artist, what prompted you

Miriam Schulman (05:03.917)
Yes.

Christian Brim (05:21.933)
18 years into it to start a podcast.

Miriam Schulman (05:25.666)
Ooh, I love the reconnaissance. I love how you can invite people onto your show and ask them questions and they will tell you. Like, so that was what attracted me to podcasting. The year prior to starting my podcast, I had been writing columns for Professional Artist Magazine. And when I was doing that and then interviewing artists and professionals for that column, that's when I realized

when you're one of the media, can open up, you don't have to pick someone's brains for coffee, you just interview them. So no coffee required.

Christian Brim (05:57.655)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (06:06.199)
Right.

No, no you don't. Do you still write?

Miriam Schulman (06:14.798)
Well, I wrote a book, Artpreneur, which was published, and my apologies for not sending it to you, but I'm happy to send it to you or your daughter. So just let me know at the end of the show and we can make sure that happens. So it was published in 2023 with HarperCollins. So anybody listening, yes, of course you can buy it online, but you can also get it from your library.

Christian Brim (06:29.293)
Appreciate it.

Christian Brim (06:41.193)
then you've had a modicum of success. I self-published my book because I had to, but also because no publisher would have done it. But the fact that you have a legitimate publisher means that you are a... You've reached a certain level of success if someone's going to invest in you to publish a book, for sure. There are a lot of bad books out there.

I've come to realize. In any case, that's beside the point. So why did you start focusing on the subject material of marketing?

Miriam Schulman (07:24.504)
Great question. when I first started out, I didn't have this book. And my mom also told me, you want to be an artist, really? That is why I didn't start off as an artist. I went the practical route. And I did come from a single parent household. My father passed away when I was five years old. So I didn't feel I had the luxury.

Christian Brim (07:26.719)
I know, I'm the host, that's what I do, I ask good questions.

Christian Brim (07:34.957)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (07:40.525)
All

Miriam Schulman (07:52.025)
to do anything unless I knew I was gonna make money right away. And so I thought, okay, well, if I have to make money and I have to make lots of it, where does that happen? Which led me to Wall Street. So I figured it was like, if that's the point, I'm going there. But after 9-11 happened, that was a wake up call for me. And I knew I could not go back to that world. And at first, I did not become an artist right away. mean, full time, because I didn't believe I could make a living.

Christian Brim (07:52.202)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (07:56.215)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (08:14.125)
Hmm

Christian Brim (08:22.135)
Mm-hmm.

Miriam Schulman (08:22.378)
So I painted on the side, I took a job as a plies instructor for a large chain of gyms in the New York area, and they gave me sales training because part of their business model is selling personal training packages. So those upsells are very profitable for them. And once I got those sales training, I realized, I can use the same exact techniques to sell my portraits.

and to sell my art. And then that led me down to becoming a lifelong student of studying marketing techniques. And right around 2018, when I started the podcast, writing for the column and starting the podcast, I was sharing what I knew with other artists and people wanted to work with me as a coach.

Christian Brim (08:51.969)
Yes. Yes.

Christian Brim (09:18.293)
I love that. What did you do in Wall Street?

Miriam Schulman (09:23.182)
Basically, so are you into like those movies like the Michael Lewis movies? Like Big Short, The Big Short, The Big Short. Okay, you remember The Big Short and the Asian guys, they were doing the computer stuff? That was me. So I was like doing computer programs for Wall Street.

Christian Brim (09:31.479)
Give me a title. okay, yes.

Christian Brim (09:38.477)
Okay.

Christian Brim (09:43.711)
Is that what you had your education in?

Miriam Schulman (09:46.029)
Well, I did a hodgepodge of things in college because I always had that pull of art. So I started off as an engineering major, but then I kept taking art classes. And then I graduated. And then I went to MIT on an engineering scholarship for AI. Yes, they had AI back in the 90s. And that is how I got hired for Wall Street was on the back.

Christian Brim (09:53.869)
Hmm.

Miriam Schulman (10:15.572)
of those computer skills.

Christian Brim (10:18.765)
You, I can tell, are a fascinating individual only because you have contained in your brain two things that don't normally go together. Although they do with more frequency than people would realize, but they do.

Miriam Schulman (10:35.618)
They totally do. mean, Leonardo da Vinci was a great artist and an engineer. And most scientists and engineers will tell you that science is creative. There's a lot of problem solving involved. And a lot of artists will tell you, yeah, there's a lot of problem solving involved in creating their artwork. So they absolutely go together, even though people like to tell themselves that they don't because.

Christian Brim (11:01.867)
Yeah, maybe it's not the inherent abilities. It's more the realized abilities that I find unique. Like most people, I don't know, label into one or the other. But, you know, we went through an exercise last year around creativity and we've done it a couple of different times in educating and team building with our team about

like unlocking that creative part because you know we're a bunch of accountants and they tend to think of themselves in terms of spreadsheets and the idea that they have this creative reservoir that they can go to and unlock I think is something that a lot of businesses a lot of people just you know miss

I don't know. At some point, I was told I was not an artist. And even to the point when Perry Marshall labeled me, he said, Well, Christian, you're an artist entrepreneur. I like, I actually was a little taken aback because the term artists seemed, I don't know, too woo woo for me. Like it just was I'm like, I'm not an artist. Like I don't do I don't have a beret.

I don't paint anything, you know, right? But the reality is that entrepreneurs rely on creativity. That's how they solve problems.

Miriam Schulman (12:42.882)
Yeah, it's really when it comes down to it, the number one skill you need to succeed in business is creativity because it's not the survival of the fittest. That's not actually what Darwin said. It's the survival of the animal that is most easily able to adapt, which is creativity. So in business, it's the same thing. You always need to be able to adapt.

Christian Brim (12:49.697)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (13:04.461)
Correct.

Miriam Schulman (13:12.782)
So every time something changes, whether it's the algorithm or now we have AI or whatever it happens to be, we're always adapting to that new business environment. And the businesses that succeed are the ones who are the most creative in doing that.

Christian Brim (13:34.775)
So the creatives that you coach or come on your show, so like, assuming like they're the anti accountants, they identify as a creative and they're not, they don't think they can think in those linear analytical terms. How do you approach that as a coach?

Miriam Schulman (13:54.351)
All right, this is a great question. I love the anti, no, just to buy me time to answer your question. That's why I say that. Okay, all right. No, it's okay.

Christian Brim (13:56.077)
Again, I know.

Christian Brim (14:01.301)
I'm sorry, sorry, pause, we'll pause, go ahead. Randy will edit however it make you sound wonderful and brilliant.

Miriam Schulman (14:10.798)
That's okay. I had somebody on yesterday who didn't like my question. She's like, well, we really should ask them this first. And she was getting very testy. So today I was teaching my new, a new person on my team, like how we upload the transcript and how we cross things off. was like, you see this part over here? That's not going into the podcast. So we continue. Go ahead. Ask the question again. So we have a clean place.

Christian Brim (14:31.925)
Right. Right.

Christian Brim (14:37.099)
I forgot the question. No, when you work. No, you'd it was a profound question, Miriam. When you work with with creatives, the people that come to you and then may come to you on the show and they they they're anti accountants, right? They self identify as a creative and they have this aversion to that linear deductive reasoning type things. How do you help them with that?

Miriam Schulman (14:39.18)
I did too! That's why I said ask it again!

Miriam Schulman (15:06.348)
Yeah, so that's why when you asked me at the very beginning, what do I focus with on the podcast? There's two things, marketing and mindset, because they have to stop telling them stories like I'm bad with money or I'm bad with business. That's a terrible story to tell yourself and it's not really even a fact. It's an opinion.

Christian Brim (15:18.637)
you

Christian Brim (15:25.216)
Mmm.

Miriam Schulman (15:33.58)
So just because you think something, you have an opinion, I am blah, blah, doesn't make it true or may not make it always true. So a lot of it has to do with helping them with their mindset and to believe a new story.

Christian Brim (15:50.124)
Yes, I love that. know just like I didn't want to be called an artist and like I had this in my head that I'm not this belief. I see with creative entrepreneurs self-identified like, you know, they may be in a creative industry, but like they they think of themselves in those terms is they will say all the time like, well, I'm just not good with numbers.

As a matter of fact, I have a creative on my team, the only creative that works for me that's like a true creative and she's our head of marketing. And we were working on a spreadsheet, right? And it was a spreadsheet I had designed. It wasn't something she had come up with, but just trying to walk her through what I had done and why I, you know,

why I had done it that way and what I did with the information that you know the spreadsheet derived and it it's I think the thing that clicked with her when I because she said the exact same well I'm just not good with spreadsheets I'm not good with numbers I was like that's not true what what you you need to reframe that statement you may not have a lot of experience with it right

you may not be comfortable with it, but that does not mean you do not have the innate capacity to understand it. And

Miriam Schulman (17:24.14)
Yeah, or tell yourself the truth. Like the truth might be, I don't have the interest to learn this. Yeah.

Christian Brim (17:31.118)
Right, yes, that's true and that's fair. But in her role, she didn't have a choice. She had to learn it. I said, and I think this is a great analogy, mainly because I came up with it, that accounting and finance is more akin to language than it is anything else. You know, people find out that I'm a CPA and they say, oh, well, I could never do that. I'm not good with math.

I said, well, look, the most math I use as an accountant is arithmetic. And I learned that in second grade, right? It is a language that tells the story of the business, right? And so if you reframe your brain in terms of that and like, okay, my business has a story to tell and those numbers are just a way to hear the story. It's not the only way to tell the story. It's just a way to tell the story.

that, that reframe helps.

Miriam Schulman (18:35.287)
I like that.

Christian Brim (18:37.837)
Thank you.

When you talk about marketing, because you said marketing and mindset, I'm going to go back to mindset first. And if you're not comfortable, tell me, we'll stop. You said that your father died at a young age, five, and I'm reading between the lines that there was a scarcity mindset around money.

that like that you you came out of your childhood and home of like I've got to make money to have that security. Is that a fair statement?

Miriam Schulman (19:15.95)
The second part is true, but the first part isn't, the scarcity mindset part. what I came out, my biggest lesson that I had when I was growing up is very different that most women's social conditioning is. A lot of women's social conditioning, especially women of my mother's generation, of our parents' generation, Christian, was that you don't have to worry about money. Your husband will take care of that.

Christian Brim (19:21.409)
Okay.

Miriam Schulman (19:46.037)
So growing up where my father who was a doctor died tragically of cancer, leaving behind a five-year-old and a three-year-old, and my mother a 27-year-old widow who then had to go back and complete her college education, that early message was very different for me because not that anyone was saying to me, Miriam, you need to do this or that.

But my lived experience told me I'm not gonna depend on somebody else for my financial independence, that it's up to me. So that is what drove me and still drives me. Even when I decided I wasn't going to go back to Wall Street, I was very driven to make it work as an artist. And it was that early conditioning that made me who I am now.

Christian Brim (20:20.672)
Yes.

Christian Brim (20:45.965)
I'm going to say a statement, and then you react.

Entrepreneurs oftentimes start the business knowingly or unknowingly to solve some perceived lack.

Miriam Schulman (21:05.71)
Okay, and people don't agree with that? I agree with, no, I think that's fair.

Christian Brim (21:09.899)
Just asking you.

Christian Brim (21:13.963)
Yeah, I don't, go, I point out knowingly or unknowingly. Like I was very young when I started. I started my business when I was 27. I didn't have the self-awareness or understanding that maybe at a very surface level, but like really what I was trying to fix were the experiences in childhood that I didn't feel like I was in control or that I wanted to be different.

Right. And I don't, I don't know that most business owners understand that's why they started their business. Like

Miriam Schulman (21:53.901)
so you're referring to like lack in your own life. I thought you meant like lack, trying to solve a problem for others, like monetizing that. Yeah.

Christian Brim (22:00.479)
No, no, no, I'm talking about so. So in your case, you didn't start a business immediately, but you did solve that perceived need of not depending upon anybody for your finances, right?

Miriam Schulman (22:14.702)
Yeah, I mean, I started off like, okay, I'm gonna go to Wall Street. Like, you know, let's just make sure that I'm well taken care of. Yes, yes, even the girls, you know, not quite as much as the boys, but I still did well. So yeah, and when I started my business, was I doing something for my own benefit? I mean, certainly I enjoyed painting.

Christian Brim (22:21.741)
Because they make a lot of money over there, yes.

Miriam Schulman (22:44.078)
course, but it was all the things. I also was a portrait artist, so I knew that was something that I could easily monetize.

Christian Brim (22:54.625)
Yes, yes, that and landscapes, I think.

Miriam Schulman (22:58.67)
No, have a lot of no, correct. I have a lot of successful landscape artists. I have a lot of successful abstract artists. It's not limited to portraits, but I did know I had a mark a market for that.

Christian Brim (23:08.973)
Sure, yeah. That reminds me, I don't know what artist it was. I'm gonna say it was Rembrandt, I don't remember, but he was painting some noble woman and she said, you know, I need you to make sure that you're doing me justice. And he said, madam, you don't want justice, you want mercy.

That was him, but in any case, I don't know if you ran into that painting other people's portraits. I gotta make them a little prettier. I gotta.

Miriam Schulman (23:43.361)
I only did an adult once in my career and I was not gonna repeat that yet. That was not my favorite. I mostly focused on children for the parents and my clients were the adults commissioning me to paint their kids.

Christian Brim (24:01.645)
because their kids are always gonna be beautiful in their eyes. Whereas you look at yourself in a portrait and just like, I don't wanna look like that. But again, you don't want justice, you want grace. So back to the mindset. I think that being aware of your money mindset, like what is motivating you, is critical in business because whatever you bring to the table,

Miriam Schulman (24:04.288)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (24:31.209)
And I'm just talking about beliefs here. I'm not even talking about habits or experience. It's the beliefs is going to affect your business. And if you don't have an understanding of it, then you're going to run into some problems. I'll give you an example. See if you ran into this one. One of the common beliefs among people is that you have to work hard to make money. Right. And which is fine. It may be true.

I know lots of people that work hard that don't make money, but that's not the point. The point of this exercise is to say, okay, well, what happens if you work less? Does that mean you don't deserve to make money? If you're a professional and you get better at your craft and you therefore are quicker at it, does that mean you should be paid less? Right? So these beliefs frame your business situation in very critical ways.

Can you speak to that through experience?

Miriam Schulman (25:31.767)
Yeah. so one of the ones that you brought up was I'm not good with numbers or I'm not good with money. And the one that I, and of course, as we've already addressed, that is something that I come up with with my clients. But one of the ones that is even more harmful is when artists tell themselves, I don't care about the money. And I tell them, well, you

Christian Brim (25:56.781)
oooo

Miriam Schulman (25:59.417)
better care about the money, otherwise money's not gonna care about you, you know, because you're gonna hurt money's feelings and it will go someplace where it cares. So that I think is a more insidious thought that some people have.

Christian Brim (26:12.578)
Do you think that they actually think that or is that just phrasing something else that's unsaid?

Miriam Schulman (26:19.79)
You know, that's a really good question. could be part of, it could be a defense mechanism as like you're trying to, to what I think you're inferring, but it's also ties into that whole idea of true artists don't care about this. And I'm a true artist where I've already, you know, we've already said Michelangelo, not only did he paint what the Pope wanted him to do, that if you were to put his money into 20, $25, he was a millionaire many times over.

So he very much cared about the money. And he didn't say, well, I'm just going to sculpt angels over here and hope somebody buys it. No, the pope says, I want Moses. I want you to paint the ceiling. He didn't say, I'm not a painter. And I don't care how much you pay me because I'm only a sculptor. That's right. That's right. He said, how much? OK, that sounds good. I need a scaffolding. That's right.

Christian Brim (26:48.193)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (27:04.929)
Right. He figured that shit out, right.

Christian Brim (27:13.961)
I can paint. Yeah, I can paint. Yeah, no, which speaks to what you were talking about being adaptive and how critical that is, right? I talk about in my book that, you know, the and I'm going to send you a copy of my book, so we'll swap. the the the subtitle is redefining the money creativity paradigm.

Miriam Schulman (27:18.463)
So.

Miriam Schulman (27:22.21)
That's correct. That's correct.

Miriam Schulman (27:34.05)
Beautiful.

Christian Brim (27:41.804)
because I think that there is this prevailing belief among creative types that those two things are an anathema to each other, that you can't have both, right? But I say it's not about selling your soul to do things that you don't like just to make money. It is repurposing your creativity that you do have. It's not getting rid of your creative energy.

Miriam Schulman (28:10.254)
And not necessarily. So we've only talked about the example of, okay, you're painting what people want. But there's also, I have a lot of other case studies of clients who, didn't change what they were painting at all, or what they were creating at all. They just got better at marketing. So I have one artist who is from the Southwest.

Christian Brim (28:27.703)
Fair?

Christian Brim (28:31.553)
Yes. No, yes, yes. No, I agree with that.

Miriam Schulman (28:40.302)
She makes her home both in Texas and Santa Fe. So she paints Southwestern. Mostly she likes to paint Native Americans and she paints from photographs her grandfather took and she's a woman in her 60s. So these are like her treasure trove that she turns into these paintings. So the year before she started working with me, she had made $13,400 from the sales of her artwork through galleries, through the gallery system.

And after reading my book, she's like, well, I want to work with you because there's another way to do this. And in 2024, she made over $90,000 and she did not change the kind of art she created at all. So, and I have lots of stories like that. So it's not necessarily about changing the kind of art you create. It could be just you get better at marketing.

Christian Brim (29:33.708)
Yes. And I think for some people, not generally with business owners, but I could see this with like people that self identify as a true artist, like like my daughter, like the idea of assigning a value to your work seems somehow slimy, like, like, but the reality is

As my daughter figured out very early, like she prices her shit very high. And I'm proud of her for that because the value, especially when you're dealing with intangibles like services and with, you know, artistic things, the value is always set by the buyer and the pricing actually drives the perceived value.

And if you are, if you're cheap, that implies that you're not good.

Miriam Schulman (30:35.182)
Correct. Correct. I'm glad you brought that up. That's definitely something I talk about in my book Art Prenuer about like Veblen goods, things where the higher the price, the more desirable it is like a Birkenbeg or an electric car. But they did do studies of wine with blind taste. You've heard this study, you've probably talked about it on the podcast, where they...

Christian Brim (30:48.065)
Yes.

Christian Brim (30:59.773)
No, I mean, I've experienced it. All wine is wine is all marketing.

Miriam Schulman (31:04.64)
So they just, took three bottles and they put different, told people was different prices and the one that had the highest price tag, people said was the best tasting wine and PS, know, they just made up those prices. had nothing to do with it. Right.

Christian Brim (31:19.413)
It was actually, it was actually Ripple. I mean, it was, it was Mad Dog. So, I mean, it wasn't even really wine.

Miriam Schulman (31:24.68)
Yeah, nothing to do with it. So pricing is like one way that you communicate value. But the other thing that creators have to let go of, and this is something else I talk about in artpreneurs, the belief triad, people, tie too much of their price to their own worth and the worth of their art, but

What you're putting out, Christian, is what most people, so the third part of the belief tried is there is the belief the customer has in themselves. So in order to sell, especially something, high end luxury good, you have to not only believe in yourself and your product, which we've all heard plenty of people say, you gotta do that. But what you don't hear people say is you have to believe in your customer.

and you have to believe in them more than they do in themselves because it's going through your customer's mind when they're about to make a purchase. Whether that purchase is for a $10,000 accounting service, a $10,000 painting, a $10,000 coaching package, whatever it is, they're not just looking at you and your product. They're considering whether they consider themselves worth spending $10,000 on.

And if you in your conversations with them are thinking, trying to argue about your price and your worth and the worth of your art, and they're not thinking about that, you will lose.

Christian Brim (32:41.357)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (32:53.599)
I think that's a brilliant insight because I've said to explain this to people, obviously the value is determined always by the customer. They're the only ones that can, but everybody makes decisions, purchasing decisions specifically emotionally, and then they backfill with rationalization, right? So.

When you see a piece of art, for instance, that evokes something in you, right, it really resonates with you and you're like, this reminds me of my childhood and, you know, this great time in my life and I would love to have this hanging in my home. And so emotionally they bought it, right? I want it. Then the rationalization comes in around, well,

Is that a fair price for that? What are my alternatives? Could I spend that on something else? Or is someone going to judge me for spending that much on that painting? There's all of these complicated things that go on in a person's brain. And that's why I find pricing and marketing fascinating studies, because it all deals with the human condition.

And it's not a science. I mean, there are scientific elements, but it's about the human condition.

Miriam Schulman (34:20.984)
Yeah, there's definitely pricing psychology and customer buying psychology. It's fascinating.

Christian Brim (34:24.855)
Sure. Yes. Have you read Confessions of a Pricing Man?

Miriam Schulman (34:31.796)
No, but that book sounds like a book I'd like to read.

Christian Brim (34:34.797)
It's a little dry. The guy is an academic, but he essentially invented the pricing industry back in the 70s as a European gentleman. But the insights in there were just absolutely crazy. But it does speak to that psychology. It's kind of like if you, and they did that study where they were,

maybe they were in Times Square, I don't know, but they had a table full of dollar bills and they were giving them away. And people were like, well, what's the hitch? I'm not, right? Right? But that is the reality is we don't function rationally. We think we do, but we don't.

Miriam Schulman (35:12.718)
I

Miriam Schulman (35:19.95)
Yeah, right. That's how people and I, when I are talking about like something I'm doing for free, they're like, well, what's the catch? Well, there's no catch. If you like what you have, what's here, you can then work with me further, but there's no catch. There's no catch. I give away 98 % of what I know for free already on the podcast.

Christian Brim (35:36.917)
Right. I can tell you.

Christian Brim (35:42.764)
Right, can attach whatever meaning to it that you want. I can tell you why I'm doing it for free, but that's irrelevant. There is no catch, right? Absolutely. So I would love to send people to you to learn more about the book and your coaching and your podcast. What's the best way to do that?

Miriam Schulman (35:51.106)
Yeah. Right.

Miriam Schulman (36:07.116)
Well, if you like what I had to say today, because it's been edited by our friend, what's her friend's name? Randy, I almost said Ralph. Randy, thank you for making me sound so good. so you can come to the Inspiration Place podcast. So wherever you're listening to the profitable creative, you can find the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you really like that, then check out my book Artpreneur again.

Christian Brim (36:09.94)
And you should.

Christian Brim (36:14.657)
Randy, Randy, it's been professionally polished.

Christian Brim (36:20.8)
And he will.

Christian Brim (36:31.974)
Love it.

Miriam Schulman (36:36.952)
There's no catch because after the publisher takes their cut, I think I make 60 cents a book. So I don't care if you get it for free. Get it for free at the library. I just want you to have it and read it. Artpreneur.

Christian Brim (36:50.379)
Well, you know, let me ask you a question. I was going to wrap, but I'm going to throw this out here. I interviewed a publisher for the show and he said that his trick is he gives his book away for free digitally.

Miriam Schulman (37:09.314)
Well, I'm not allowed to do that because I have a, you know, it's being sold as an ebook again by Harper Collins. So, but I really don't, I don't need people to buy the book. Like I was paid a very, very handsome advance. I haven't earned the advance back yet. We've sold 20,000 versions of the book, audio, ebooks, paperback.

Christian Brim (37:10.497)
because he knows that if they don't, well, no, the restrictions, right. Right, right.

Christian Brim (37:25.163)
Right.

Christian Brim (37:34.645)
which is exceptional just for those listening. For a business book, that's huge.

Miriam Schulman (37:40.778)
Right, it's not a memoir by Prince Harry, so it's a business book. So there'll be some time before I actually get revenue from it, but the most important thing for me is people have it. I know that it changes lives. And I know that most people who do end up working with me, they listen to the podcast, they listen to the book, and they just can't get enough and they want more. So I only need 1 % of my audience to buy from me to make my business work.

Christian Brim (37:43.821)
Correct.

Christian Brim (37:54.412)
Yes.

Christian Brim (38:09.645)
Perfect. Listeners will have that link in the show notes or those links. I'm gonna put a link to the book too. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message and I'll get rid of Miriam. Until next time. Ta-ta for now.

Miriam Schulman (38:30.464)
Get rid of Miriam