Crafting Memorable Live Experiences | Dawn Farrow

PROFITABLE TALKS...

Dawn Farrow discusses her new business in the experience economy, her background in performance, and her role in creating engaging live experiences and marketing strategies to enhance profitability.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

• We are a business working in the experience economy.
• I run major experience, live experiences, and marketing campaigns.
• Talking to global marketers about how to be part of the experience.
• The importance of networking events in the experience economy.
• Strategies to better market experiences for profit.
• Engaging with audiences through live experiences is crucial.
• The role of community in enhancing marketing efforts.
• Understanding the experience economy is key for modern marketers.
• Profit generation is a primary goal in the experience economy.
• Collaboration with global marketers can lead to innovative strategies.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:00.183)
We can get into it. Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Montclair, California. Sounds like a lovely place. No idea where it is, but thank you for listening. Joining me today, Don Farrow of OnSale.Live. Don, welcome to the program.

Dawn Farrow (00:26.862)
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Christian Brim (00:31.179)
Don't you just love her accent? We were discussing in the green room about me being an anglophile. I was raised on Monty Python and Doctor Who. It was on our public television here in the States, but that's what I watched. I'm truly a demented person for it too. Anyway, Don, tell us about On Sale That Live. Help me, please. Get me out of...

Dawn Farrow (00:57.774)
No, love it. It's a wonderful introduction to to the English sensibility and our humor at least. So I enjoy that very much. Well, what can I tell you about on sale dot live? We are a business working in the experience economy. The business is actually quite a new one that I set up earlier this year, but it comes with a backdrop of 20 years working in experiences. So I originally

Christian Brim (01:14.678)
Mmm

Dawn Farrow (01:26.412)
wait for it, was trained as a performer, as a dancer. And now I run major experience, live experiences, and I run huge marketing campaigns for events like Friends or Squid Game. And when I'm not doing that, I run this incredible community called On Sale, which has a convex and various different networking events.

And we are talking to global marketers about how to be part of the experience economy, how to better market your experiences in the experience economy, and ultimately, back to the point of today, how to make more profit.

Christian Brim (02:08.119)
Wow, there is a lot to unpack on there. I want to start by clarifying you don't dance at these events, correct?

Dawn Farrow (02:15.131)
No, this is let's let's put a full stop there. Yeah.

Christian Brim (02:16.394)
Okay. Okay. All right. So how did you get into how? Okay. How did you get into events?

Dawn Farrow (02:26.872)
So I spent many years training as a professional performer. That's why I moved to London. And whilst I was in London, I also did a business degree. When I began working in London, I was working for producers. So I worked for Clear Channel, which I appreciate.

is globally a huge company and within Clear Channel I worked in the producer's office so I was working on musicals like Cats and Starlight Express and we were touring them across the UK. That's how I then made my way into marketing. I built a very successful marketing agency and then have continued building my profile within experiences.

Christian Brim (03:15.885)
So do you still have the marketing agency separate or is this the evolution of?

Dawn Farrow (03:19.022)
No. Yes. So on sale is absolutely the evolution of my marketing agency, which, you know, sometimes we talk about having a little luck in business. I actually closed it just 10 days before the pandemic.

Christian Brim (03:36.585)
You knew something. You knew what was going on. This is a conspiracy now, Don. What did you know and when did you know it?

Dawn Farrow (03:41.486)
you

I don't, do you know someone in my office did have a really bad cough, but not enough, not enough for us to really suspect anything.

Christian Brim (03:53.771)
Wow, that is lucky, especially in that space because that that space turned off for two years.

Dawn Farrow (03:59.247)
Oh, immediately. I mean, even before lockdown, was the first thing that our then Prime Minister Boris Johnson said, do not go to any theatres. It was the first thing. Sport was still OK, but don't go to the theatre.

Christian Brim (04:15.563)
Yeah, it was really hard for the players to play with masks on. It was just, you know, hard to breathe. So, okay, so what did you do during the pandemic?

Dawn Farrow (04:28.044)
Right. So I was in a lucky position that having built a very successful marketing agency, I had extremely good contacts. And I think what is one of the most exciting things about the space that I work in is how entrepreneurial my clients and producers are. And when I say they pivoted, they pivoted. And in that pivot, the great news was that they still needed great marketing and people able to

really think about how to reach those audiences in those circumstances. So in many ways, the answer is I kept doing what I was doing. But on the flip side, what I actually did was go for the ride with some amazing entrepreneurs over that period.

Christian Brim (05:06.966)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (05:17.291)
And I'm assuming that that greatly influenced your current iteration.

Dawn Farrow (05:24.76)
Great, yes, that's exactly it. Because what I realized over a period of years is that we have an incredible workforce across the experience economy. And particularly for me, because I most interest in marketing, comms, sales, an incredible amount of talent that is not always brilliantly supported.

Christian Brim (05:48.344)
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Farrow (05:52.815)
often lacking in resource and investment and all of whom work so hard that they never spend time on their own training and their own, you know, if you were to ask a marketer in my industry, how would you find five new ways to sell more tickets?

they would creatively come up with things, but what they wouldn't be able to do is say, well, I would look to the attractions industry where they do this, and then I would take that idea, and then I would bring it back, and then I would implement that, and I would create iterations of it. And On Sale Live does exactly that. And so every year in May, the whole global experience economy of marketers come together and is exactly what we learn from one another.

Christian Brim (06:45.057)
Now is that, that's a stupid question, but is it a live event?

Dawn Farrow (06:49.806)
It's our live event. So what happens every May is that, well, this May it will be 250 with 50 speakers. We all get together in King's Cross. We have a whole building that we take over and we have several different zones, including a main stage and networking. But crucially, we also have career and wellbeing zones and we gift free one-to-one coaching because in a world that demands a huge amount of us as a

As a workforce generally, think what I have seen is not enough investment in wellbeing and how to almost be like the athlete in your craft and what we need to do to really look after ourselves.

Christian Brim (07:34.115)
So, okay, this is brilliant. See, I used a good British word there. This is brilliant. I am a, I'm kind of fascinated by the whole live event because I think about how much money when you talk about global or even national, you know, events, I think if you go back maybe 30 years ago, it was, it was a

primarily trade shows, right? Like so people in an industry would show up and share all kinds of things and display all kinds of things and sell all kinds of things. It was kind of like a live marketplace, right? But it has evolved, but what I'm shocked at is how much money those events made. Like Sheldon Adelson,

you know, with the, the, the big consumer trade show, you know, made millions and then ended up, you know, creating the Venetian and like, that was, that was the nexus of his wealth was the convention business, right? Do you see a return? And then, then it evolved and like, you know, there still are those things, but

Do you see people can still make that kind of money in those live events?

Dawn Farrow (09:08.462)
My short answer is yes. My more detailed response is perhaps more detailed to say that the experience economy in the UK is valued at 134 billion, just in this small island.

Christian Brim (09:11.5)
Okay.

Dawn Farrow (09:28.426)
We are projected globally to have an experienced economy that is worth in 2028 more than 20 trillion dollars. The numbers are extraordinary. Now what I see are major investors coming into the market. So we used to have quite a not rough and ready but certainly a little bit more spit and dood, spit and somebody's dust.

What's the phrase? Spitting sawdust. But it used to be... okay. So, and we would get a lot of what we call angel investors. So individuals who, you know, had some money and they thought it may be sometimes quite glamorous to invest in maybe the theatre or the arts or an element of the experience economy.

Christian Brim (10:02.133)
I don't know, this is a-

There we go, okay. Not familiar with that one, but I like the analogy.

Dawn Farrow (10:27.95)
Theatres particularly were independently owned by a couple of, you know, a couple of individuals, but you know, not big businesses, but certainly what has happened over the 20 years I've been doing it is an explosion in investment and explosion in major players within different parts of the experience economy. And you only have to look at the data around the sphere in Vegas, for example, to begin to understand the scale.

The scale of the experience economy right now, I mean, it's truly exciting, but also, you know, there is money to be made and there is huge money to be lost.

Christian Brim (11:13.303)
Well, yeah, I don't think the spheres made money yet. Although I heard they were building another one in Dubai. I don't know if that actually is happening. Do you know?

Dawn Farrow (11:22.826)
I don't know if it's happening. It's a good question. I certainly know that there were discussions around building one in the UK, which didn't go ahead.

Christian Brim (11:31.797)
I, yeah, I was following it just because the CFO, they kept cycling through CFOs and I'm like, that's never a good sign because when, your finance guy is not on board, then that means you've got trouble anyway. okay. So there's money to be made. Is there a, an application beyond the large scale event? So going to.

something like yours on sale.live. there, is there a way to make money in these spaces either? I'll back up a second. We, we wanted to have a live event this year and we failed miserably and it was a grand vision and I spent a lot of money on it and didn't sell a ticket and we pulled the plug on it.

I still believe in the idea of what I had envisioned for creative entrepreneurs, a workshop experience. But what I came to realize, well, this is my suspicion, is I was trying to create a community where a community didn't already exist. And it, you know,

It seems that a lot of this stuff happens organically as opposed to like directed. Do you have any thoughts on that? Help me help me a sewage my my my pain.

Dawn Farrow (13:11.991)
Yeah.

Firstly, I'd say it's extremely relatable. I think I have put many things, I've come up with many ideas that have not worked and the joy of that is the ability to take action and not keep pursuing something. What I have come to realize about On Sale Live and the community that I've built is that I could only do this now.

Christian Brim (13:29.303)
Hmm.

Dawn Farrow (13:43.213)
There has been changes in economic circumstances that has created a pool of pressure that has never been experienced before in my area of business. And with that immense pressure comes a huge amount of people seeking answers. So we are no longer in a marketplace where you put something on sale and it just sells itself.

Christian Brim (13:43.639)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (14:10.243)
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Farrow (14:10.278)
And I only know that because that's what I do for part of my week, you when I'm working on a live experience for a client.

So I was able to take my literal day-to-day experience and call, you know, and actually I was, called a few friends and colleagues in the industry and said, this is what's happening to like, do you also feel like that? Like, where do you sit on it? And they said, yes. Now I also, when I was talking about the concept of OnSale Live,

Christian Brim (14:32.325)
Mm-hmm

Dawn Farrow (14:41.266)
spoke with many people I look up to in the industry who were really clear with me and said, people will not come and share. And that's because we used to be in this pool where I'm not going to give you any information. So attractions don't speak to location based entertainment, location based entertainment didn't speak to theater, theater doesn't speak to immersive dining experiences, but

It is so hard selling tickets now and building live experience brands or brands where you need to purchase a ticket that what I have seen is that people are desperate to come together. But I could only identify that now in this economic moment and with this level of experience behind me.

Christian Brim (15:23.299)
Mmm

Christian Brim (15:33.993)
Let me rephrase that and see if I understood you. There's a shift in the people that would attend your live event where they now have a need that they know about. Is that an accurate restatement?

Dawn Farrow (15:51.827)
that's very fair. There is a pain point that even if it did exist before has taken a period of time to acknowledge.

Christian Brim (15:54.54)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (16:02.537)
Yeah, yes, yes. I was re-reading Extreme Revenue Growth by Victor Ching. He was a Silicon Valley investor, investor. Investor, okay. But, you know, he talks about fundamentals for revenue growth. And it seems so pedantic when you read it, but it's like, that it's simple. It's not easy.

And, and the, and the, the first aspect is that there is a customer that has a need and they know about it. Right. And, so, so oftentimes I think as entrepreneurs, we see the need way before the customer sees the need. Yeah. And, and, and until they see the need, you can't sell them because they don't perceive it. don't understand it. And if you're trying to sell them on the need,

before you sell them on your solution, you're way behind the power curve there. I think what I see, not specifically in your industry, but generally, I think technology and the...

We're more connected than we ever have been in human history, but we are more alone than we ever have been in human history, right? These two things at the same time. And I think that's one of the macro trends that's driving what you're talking about, because there's an overall lack of trust of who can I actually engage with and not get screwed and can actually deliver.

but there's also just like this need for human connection beyond social media or zoom meetings. Yeah.

Dawn Farrow (17:59.727)
Absolutely, and it's why we see some of our I mean a great example Claude AI Obviously lives on our computers all of a sudden they are creating a live Experiential version of their brand so you can enter the world you can go buy a coffee you can hang out with people you can create human connection it's exactly What you're describing a hundred percent

Christian Brim (18:23.299)
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Farrow (18:28.154)
And of course, when it comes to selling a live ticket for a live experience, you're totally right about trust. it's why we see in, traditional West End theatre that the more long-standing, potentially...

more trustworthy or there's a sense of inbuilt trust in the brand, those musicals will always sell their tickets first. And what happens in our markets, we also have this incredible explosion of live experience content.

an immersive experience, an immersive gameplay experience, a Dine in the Dark experience. I mean, there has never been more opportunities and ways to spend your money if you're seeking a live event.

Christian Brim (19:21.111)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (19:24.695)
Yeah. that I, you know, Perry Marshall, I don't know if you're familiar with him. He's, he's an author and marketer here in the States. actually he does some events over in Ireland, but anyway, that's not the UK. anyway, he, he talks about, like, he uses live concerts, to show the example because like you, you, you can't as a artist make money in streaming.

anymore unless you're like uber successful, right? The technology has shifted that it's very hard to make money making music, right? But then you shift to, and it's cheap for the consumer, right? But you shift that and go to the other extreme where the live event where, you U2 sells out at the Sphere and, you know,

Who is the gig that they did like five shows in a row, but they were all different anyway. It was some group, I'll think of it in a second. No, At the Sphere. was, I'll think of it anyway. But the point was that these artists can make millions doing the live events that they couldn't.

Dawn Farrow (20:34.648)
Was it Backstreet Boys? No. Yeah.

Dawn Farrow (20:41.91)
Anyway.

Christian Brim (20:52.181)
Obviously they've got to be popular enough to draw the crowd, but the point was that they can charge so much more for a live event than selling an album, so to speak.

Dawn Farrow (21:02.798)
That's exactly it. And the fundamentals of live experience are about community. so that principle for our major bands and artists is you're totally right. And it translates right down to the bottom of the funnel. And of course, we need to have the investment at that.

Christian Brim (21:09.431)
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Farrow (21:27.168)
end of the scale so that they're absolutely still touring venues and these venues are getting investment so that then the community that are buying the tickets are having a great time. create connection with the artist on sale so that next time they see the artist, it's the next scale up a venue. And that's what we have to create.

Christian Brim (21:46.755)
So do you think this scales down then? So you don't have to sell out the sphere. You can do a smaller venue in Bristow, right?

Dawn Farrow (21:59.127)
Yeah, you can absolutely that there are major challenges, not least the cost to market those experiences. And of course, you know, the cost to high venues, the overheads are extraordinary. But I would in a world where, as you rightly have pointed out for music in particular, you know, streaming alone isn't going to, you know, pay rent. And so these artists are, are having to find other ways. Now, somebody listening to this is probably screaming at

Christian Brim (22:21.955)
Go.

Dawn Farrow (22:28.842)
at it saying, but we don't make any money touring to these venues either. And I absolutely know that, you know, we have artists that go to Edinburgh Festival every year. a perfect example of there's nobody really making money, not in Edinburgh Festival, but the opportunity to make money is that now you have your piece of content, you have the product that you can then look to sell in different markets in different ways.

Christian Brim (22:54.763)
Mm-hmm. Because that's, mean, yeah, they're wanting the old school vinyl or they're wanting the concession, you know, t-shirts, hoodies, whatever. and, and, you know, I don't know if you guys do this, but there's at your live events, there's, there's the, there's the premium package where there's an extra experience and a more intimate experience that you can always upsell. Like that's.

Dawn Farrow (23:22.67)
Oh, I mean the money to be made on upsells is extraordinary and I would say not just for those most well-known artists, I would say in any strategy really important now to be thinking about what is my premium experience and I would always err on the side of caution don't call it VIP unless it is truly

VIP, but certainly call it premium. Like what can you do to just make someone's experience just that tiny bit more? I was looking at some data yesterday on the increase of Prosecco upsells on a particular experience and we're up 100 % week on week and we're sat here talking in November and I know that we're up 100 % week on week because we're coming into the festive season.

And if I didn't have that Prosecco as an upsell, we just wouldn't be selling it.

Christian Brim (24:21.251)
Okay, so I want to pivot, talk more about your business. what is it like, okay, I have this idea for a live event and it was going to be a workshop and it was going to be 50 people. It was a national event. You know, in other words, we were marketing nationally. Is that something, the type of thing that you would work with?

Dawn Farrow (24:45.294)
So as a consultant, yes, absolutely. So I have producers that come to me with exactly that. This is my project. This is my vision.

but I'm a producer, I've got the vision, what I'm not is a marketer and that's exactly it. So I have Netflix come to me and say, via a producer in London, we're bringing Squid Game the experience to London, could you direct the campaign? And that's exactly what I do. I build the teams, I look at how we're going to ticket it, what are the ticket prices? What are our upsells? And then...

Christian Brim (25:04.129)
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Farrow (25:28.472)
and then I build the campaign with the team and take it to market.

Christian Brim (25:33.507)
So your ideal target customer is much, I mean, it sounds like it's a bigger business or a bigger production or a bigger budget than something like ours, which I think we were like a $50,000 budget. That's what we were working

Dawn Farrow (25:57.583)
Got it. So for me personally, yes, but what I would say is that within the network, so there are now more than 500 people in this network of marketers that I have within on sale. And there are people working, there are freelancers, there are in-house teams, there are agencies, and they're working with budgets, you know, that size and smaller, depending on the, you know, the producing team and who's approached them to work on it.

Christian Brim (26:26.463)
And is this team global?

Dawn Farrow (26:30.094)
I would say of the followers in the community that I have, it's predominantly UK, but there are absolutely quite a lot of Americans because I often work with brands from across America, but also across Europe as well, because obviously that's very close to home.

Christian Brim (26:48.909)
So let me ask you this, okay, this model works in the UK. Could you, could you bring on sale.live to the US?

Dawn Farrow (27:01.326)
we absolutely could bring it to the US. What we are doing at the moment is building

the brand to have global appeal. And in 2026, we already have quite a large contingency of producers and marketers coming over from Europe. And then my goal, absolutely, is to start bringing in more global content. And if we can bring that into London in the short term, my ambition would be absolutely to be to explore other markets that have a similar footprint to London in terms of appetite and growth in the experience economy.

Christian Brim (27:09.323)
Mm-hmm

Christian Brim (27:38.167)
So is the reason you wouldn't expand to the US that the community is not yet there? So it's really kind of a business strategy question to you. What is the reason why, what needs to happen first before you can move out of the UK?

Dawn Farrow (28:03.982)
the global community needs to be bigger. And there's also lot of trade examples where actually rather than growing small events globally and having multiple locations, what they actually do is create one much larger one annually and everybody flies into it. And so I don't yet know in terms of the

Christian Brim (28:29.463)
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Farrow (28:32.28)
business growth, which way I may choose to take it.

Christian Brim (28:38.147)
Got it. How do you, well no, here is my original question. Is Rory Sutherland going to be at your event in April?

Dawn Farrow (28:47.47)
Rory Sutherland is at everybody's event and so with kindness won't be at mine. Though... But true!

Christian Brim (28:54.903)
That's funny. Okay. Now I'm not going to ask. No, well, okay. So I read his book a couple of years ago. I don't remember who recommended it to me. and then I had noticed that there are a lot of YouTube shorts and, and reels showing up. So is, is he just doing more now or is it, he's just promoting himself more now?

Dawn Farrow (29:20.878)
actually don't, I mean, I don't know is the short answer to that, but he is, he, is an incredibly well known face in, in, in the marketing and advertising world. but what I would also say is that my market is very much

Christian Brim (29:24.524)
Okay.

Christian Brim (29:32.172)
Okay.

Dawn Farrow (29:39.584)
the experience economy and whilst we're, I mean, clearly extraordinarily intelligent man and would be able to talk about all subjects, I have more interest in booking people directly from within this experience economy.

Christian Brim (29:52.269)
Fair enough.

That makes sense. Okay, so who are some of the highlights of the speakers that you're going to have?

Dawn Farrow (29:59.681)
Yes, so who are some of the highlights? So we have a lady called Professor Catherine Loveday. She is a neuropsychologist and she speaks about customer behavior patterns and how you can use nostalgia in your campaigns to drive interest and convert ticket sales. We also have a series of course. We can't have a conference without talking about AI, but really important is particularly in my industry.

because the discussion about AI is quite a hard one because we deal with lot of creative, but from a marketing perspective, we're talking a lot about how to make it work in order to actually make you have a better and easier day. So actually just the practical sides of using AI. We're also going to be talking about success across Europe and how promoters across Europe are doing things maybe slightly differently to the way that we're doing it in London and that

Christian Brim (30:43.394)
Mm-hmm.

Dawn Farrow (30:58.7)
Of course, you know, it's really important that we learn from one another. And then we have a series of case studies and we have a piece of around workforce and then full circle back to free coaching. And if you're not into free coaching, what we have is a different kind of therapy, which ends with a glass of fizz at the end of the day.

Christian Brim (31:22.765)
It's the best kind of therapy although I'd prefer bourbon, but you know that Scotch if if you're in the UK, I know that I don't know. Do you guys drink bourbon over there? I mean do you I mean it It's a quintessential American thing, but I didn't know if it was popular there

Dawn Farrow (31:24.622)
Dawn Farrow (31:36.524)
Yeah, absolutely.

Dawn Farrow (31:40.842)
yeah yeah Americana, we love it!

Christian Brim (31:44.536)
Hmm, there's a mutual admiration society there somewhere. That's fascinating. Okay, so when you work with these clients, how do you determine your pricing? Is there any productization to what you do, or is it all custom scope of work?

Dawn Farrow (31:49.262)
you

Dawn Farrow (32:03.95)
That's a really great question. Yeah, well, and it's fascinating for me because depending on which business books we read, of course, this is all about creating value and that the price doesn't mean anything because as long as we get the benefits and the value across people will pay anything. But I would counter that by saying that we are living in very different economic times in an extraordinarily busy market.

Christian Brim (32:06.591)
I know that's why I asked it.

Dawn Farrow (32:33.538)
when you're working with live experiences, you're very rarely working with a single ticket price. What you're actually working with is tiered pricing, often maybe four tiers, but maybe even with those four tiers, you have peak and off peak. And then we might want to overlay some dynamic pricing so that we can really maximize on certain days because we know we're going to lose on other days. And so the actual...

balance of that and the maths of it is extremely complicated and I as a marketer would work really closely with the producing and finance teams to really get that right. The other reason I work really hard with them on that and work closely with them is because that often will, the figures that we come up with that will often inform how much marketing budget we get because of course this is all about how do we generate the income

Therefore, what are our overheads? And marketing is very much seen as an overhead in my industry as opposed to the investment it really is.

Christian Brim (33:41.155)
Okay, so how does that drive what you charge your customers for your service? I may have miscommunicated the question.

Dawn Farrow (33:47.1)
No!

Dawn Farrow (33:51.074)
that okay.

Christian Brim (33:51.267)
So there's two good questions back to back.

Dawn Farrow (33:54.133)
Yeah, how I charge, I...

charge a bit like an agency would. I charge a retained fee for a delivery of service and then I go out to market and find other people to support the strategy that I'm building and depending on how they operate. So PR teams here are generally on a flat fee per month but a digital agency is probably taking a commission based on the advertising that they're running.

Christian Brim (34:24.995)
Perfect. There's another book. don't remember the author's name. I can see his face. Confessions of a Pricing Man. was a German guy. Developed the pricing consulting industry like in the 70s. Have you read this book? It's very dry. It's completely unlike Rory's book, Alchemy.

Dawn Farrow (34:36.12)
Right.

Dawn Farrow (34:44.907)
No, I haven't.

Christian Brim (34:52.451)
it, but it's, specifically on pricing and how human behavior, is affected with different scenarios. And some of this stuff is dated because it's an older book, but the concepts are fascinating to me. find pricing fascinating because it's about human behavior and I find that fascinating. So.

Dawn Farrow (35:15.534)
I agree and I actually came off a call today, talking about we are effectively two weeks out from Black Friday and I'm fascinated about consumer behaviour at this point, given that we have taught our consumers to wait, wait, wait, wait, because you've got

offers coming up. And so it's a really, it's a really interesting time of year, I think, because on the one hand, you're looking at sales and go, why am I selling fewer tickets? Or, you know, but, but you're also setting up Black Friday offers, and you know that you're going to have this, you've already, it's, why would they buy exactly? And also, why would you therefore spend more money to try and get them to buy?

Christian Brim (35:37.891)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (35:53.422)
Mm-hmm. Why would they buy?

Right. Right.

Christian Brim (36:04.963)
Yes, yes, yes. I think it's also interesting the adaptive behavior. I was having this conversation with an SEO marketer yesterday on the show and it's like he was talking about how AI has changed the SEO landscape and how they approach it. But.

The thing is, is once you think it's always a moving target because it's not like you put something out there and people don't react to it. Whether it's technology or marketing, like, you know, as soon as you change the people react and change to it. So it's not like you can have this strict formula of, okay, this worked in the past, so let's do it again, because they adapt.

Dawn Farrow (36:58.702)
Absolutely, and I always question I'm getting served some adverts at the moment by someone hugely successful in marketing and advertising terms who claims to have you know Sort of come up with the answer to sell your product in seven easy steps or whatever it might be and I just think I just call politely bullshit on that because Exactly to your point it is always changing

Now, and in a sense that keeps me in a job, but it is also why what I do is extraordinarily hard because you have to acknowledge that it's going to change, be ready for change, but also have a plan in place for the future anyway, and then pivot as soon as you need to.

Christian Brim (37:32.791)
Yes.

Christian Brim (37:44.62)
Yes. And I agree with you. I've said this on the show many times. I call it, at least in the area where I am, which is the United States, and it is small business, is the crackhead energy that is around marketing. And marketers that I talk to, they're like, are you calling us crackheads? No, no, no, no. The businesses are the crackheads, right?

And, and they don't understand marketing. They're pitched constantly for services around marketing. And they're, they're like the crack head, which they're looking for that quick, quick high, that quick fix. And that might be visits to the website. It might be some conversion metric like they're, they're looking for something to say, I got that dopamine fix from the crack. But, but what they don't understand is that's not a long-term solution.

Right. The basics of marketing have, you know, modern marketing have not changed in 75 years. I mean, it's, it's target customer. It's it's messaging. It's channels like there's, there's nothing else to it. And I'm not a marketing expert, like,

But to the point is just because the principles haven't changed doesn't mean the execution has not radically changed and will continue to change and is unpredictable by nature because you're dealing with humans.

Dawn Farrow (39:14.99)
Absolutely, absolutely. As we would say, there's now as queer as folk.

Christian Brim (39:20.899)
Don, I'm very curious how to find out how to attend on sale.live if listeners want to or if I want to.

Dawn Farrow (39:22.451)
you

Dawn Farrow (39:31.544)
Great, so you would go to literally onsale.live and you will find out, you'll find all the information there. If you would like to, you would also be able to sign up and you can receive free marketing tips every week. We also have free webinars, so sign up to the newsletter because we give away a lot for free because this is all about building resource, building networks, building learning.

and if you would like to learn more about me then you would go to dawnfarrow.com

Christian Brim (40:04.515)
Well, that was my next question. You didn't let me ask the question. And if I wanted to work with you, Don, all right, now you can say it.

Dawn Farrow (40:10.722)
Well, so I'm so pleased you asked. You would go through DawnFarrow.com.

Christian Brim (40:13.282)
Yes.

Christian Brim (40:17.217)
Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, and I don't understand why you wouldn't, shoot us a message and let us know what you'd like to hear and we'll get rid of Dawn. Until next time, ta ta for now.

Dawn Farrow (40:33.519)
Thank