Will AI Replace Voice Actors or Make Them More Valuable | Connor Quinn

PROFITABLE TALKS...

In this engaging conversation, Christian Brim interviews Connor Quinn, a seasoned voiceover artist with a rich history in the industry. They explore Connor's journey from a child actor for Disney to a prominent voice in commercials and animations. The discussion delves into the impact of AI on the voiceover industry, the importance of authentic storytelling, and the evolving landscape of creative opportunities. Connor shares insights on navigating the industry, building relationships, and the necessity of adapting to changes while maintaining a human touch in creativity.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

• Connor Quinn has 38 years of experience in voiceovers.
• He started his career as the voice of Christopher Robin for Disney.
• Voiceover work has evolved with technology, especially with AI.
• Authenticity in storytelling is crucial in today's creative landscape.
• The gig economy is reshaping how creative professionals work.
• Building relationships is key in the creative industry.
• AI can assist but will never replace the human element.
• There are opportunities for those willing to adapt and learn new skills.
• Voiceover artists are increasingly expected to be multi-talented.
• The importance of storytelling remains a constant in creative fields.

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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:01.714)
Welcome to another edition of the profitable creative the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit I am your host Christian Brim Special shout out to our one listener in Moscow, Idaho. I've already opined on this You shouldn't name cities for other cities. It's stealing don't do it. But thank you for listening Joining me today the eponymous Connor Quinn

I've been looking forward to this. Yes, I got to actually use the word in its correct context this time. It's the first time on the show. So I've been looking forward to this interview. We've had to reschedule it, had some issues. Connor, welcome to the show.

Connor Quinn (00:28.045)
Wow.

Connor Quinn (00:33.036)
Is that the first time this year you've used the word eponymous? Me too. just, yeah.

Connor Quinn (00:41.55)
Yeah

Well, thank you, Christian. And so, I mean, it's what an honor. I mean, the people you've had on here and you've always been delightful in every social context that we've met. So I've looked forward to this interview so much, man. I appreciate that. I appreciate you having me.

Christian Brim (00:59.666)
Well, absolutely. for those of us, those in the audience that don't know who you are, tell them how they will know you.

Connor Quinn (01:10.446)
yeah, it's like, often say my voice is famous, but I'm not famous, which is perfectly fine with me. I, you know, I would hate to be a celebrity of like, whatever Val Kilmer or any of these guys. It's like, where you can go places and shop and do whatever. and I have the, the ability to change my voice. Thank goodness. You know, that, cause I really don't talk like this in anything I do, but I'm a voiceover. So, you know, my voice has been used.

This is my 38th year in voiceovers specifically. But it even goes beyond that when I was a child actor. My first job was for Disney doing voiceovers and that kind of continued off and on. But full time 38 years. I've done Visa, you know, was the voice of Visa in the 90s. Here in Oklahoma, I've done Brahms for like 25 years. You know, there's a group of us actors that are fortunate to do Brahms. What a, you know, legendary.

icon for Oklahoma and you know so you know on top of that NBC, Disney

Christian Brim (02:09.906)
Yes.

Christian Brim (02:16.788)
What characters did you do for Disney?

Connor Quinn (02:19.822)
So Disney, very first character I started with was, I was six years old and I was the voice, and I can't do the voice now, I was the voice of Christopher Robin for Winnie the Pooh in 1977. So they used me in, they had come out with several films like Think in like 69. And my grandfather was good friends with Sterling Holloway who I don't know if they, you can, but I have a.

Christian Brim (02:44.884)
We're not gonna use the video for your request, so.

Connor Quinn (02:48.554)
that's right. Yeah. In my studio, I have a good luck charm. It's Sterling Holloway, the voice of Winnie the Pooh. He and my grandfather were good friends. And, 1977, my grandfather said, this was before Star Wars. So it was a different world. And he says, Hey, would you like to meet Winnie the Pooh? Well, every boy and girl pre Star Wars, Winnie the Pooh was everything. So as a six year old, I was like, yeah, I do. And he took me to lunch at this,

Christian Brim (03:08.721)
Absolutely.

Connor Quinn (03:18.296)
place off in Santa Monica's where they hung out. My grandfather was a cameraman for CBS television city where they did Price is Right and know soap operas. But he and Sterling and several other guys would meet for lunch almost every day. And so as a little kid, I've just met this redheaded weird guy like who is this? And then when he spoke, it's like, his real voice is kind of like Winnie the Pooh. And

So in conversation, he asked my grandfather, did your grandson do a British accent? And, you know, my parents, my grandparents, they're all from Oklahoma. They barely knew what a British accent was, but he lied. He's like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Sterling said, well, great. In two weeks, we're doing an audition for our Christopher Robin, because he's out of adolescence now and we're looking for a younger Christopher for some projects. And...

Christian Brim (03:59.315)
You

Connor Quinn (04:12.694)
I was horrible. made Dick Van Dyke from Mary Poppins sound incredible, you know, with his British accent. And, you know, my parents worked with me, you know, for months. Well, for a six-year-old, it's quite, quite entertaining. I have to say that. But, you know, I guess Sterling, you know, thank God, you know, he liked, he liked me and loved my grandfather. So he,

Christian Brim (04:22.344)
That's a, that's a low bar. I gotta say.

Connor Quinn (04:41.912)
pushed word in for Disney and I auditioned and got the part at six years old. So it was like getting hit by lightning three times in a row. was like astronomical. That's your first job. Yeah.

Christian Brim (04:49.992)
Yeah, you were supposed to, you were supposed to be doing this. That's fascinating because I loved Winnie the Pooh as a kid and I probably listened to you and here we are now 40 some odd years later. That's insane. That is insane. Okay, so I don't know if this was the case back then, but were actors

Connor Quinn (04:58.712)
Yeah.

Connor Quinn (05:05.43)
Yes, some time later.

Christian Brim (05:17.3)
attached to a certain studio the way, you know, like, or was it like a free for all you could work for whoever.

Connor Quinn (05:26.124)
You know, it was, it was of course quite some time after the contract, the studio contract era where you had contracts for studios, you know, in the fifties and sixties. But there was still some attachment, especially with Disney. Disney was very hands on. You know, like there's only been like maybe four people that's been the voice of Mickey Mouse. So it's been very controlled. But that being said with kind of the freestyle of the seventies.

Christian Brim (05:35.026)
Okay.

Connor Quinn (05:55.103)
I had, I started picking up work on television. So I was on, you know, Little House on the Prairie just like two months after I was recording for Disney and that was on camera. And then I just, from there it started, you know, hundreds of commercials. If there was a cereal in the seventies and eighties, I ate it. No, Bubblicious. mean, just, I was in every McDonald land commercial back when McDonald's, you know, was really

Christian Brim (06:05.254)
Okay.

Christian Brim (06:14.291)
Yes.

Connor Quinn (06:21.912)
pushing out their characters and it was the fun McDonald's, not the adult contemporary with the stylish little kiosks now that they have, but you know, the fun plastic McDonald's we grew up with, you know? And then at that exact same time, I also picked up a contract with Sesame Street. So six months of the year as a little boy, I would film Little House and then six months of the year, I lived in Manhattan and I would film

Christian Brim (06:32.687)
Yeah. Yeah.

Connor Quinn (06:51.662)
because we shot off back then it was called teletaped productions it was right off Broadway and I would film Sesame Street and I did that until like 82

Christian Brim (07:03.218)
What voice were you for Sesame Street?

Connor Quinn (07:05.624)
So Sesame Street, I was on camera. was just a child actor. So I was in a lot of sketches with, know, back then, you know, it Jim Henson and Frank Oz and them doing the characters and they weren't celebrities really. They're puppets for celebrities, Bert and Ernie and, you know, Big Bert and all that. And so they would put Connor on this little five foot wall. So I'd sit there and then Ernie would pop up and offer me a plate of cookies. And...

Christian Brim (07:07.848)
okay. Okay.

Christian Brim (07:19.859)
Right.

Connor Quinn (07:35.343)
Connor loved cookies. in those days, doing a lot of television, we didn't have fast, we weren't able to eat it. I didn't have my first cheeseburger till I was a little bit older, but getting the cookies, I just couldn't stand myself. So as soon as Ernie was going to hand me, he's like, a plate of cookies for my good buddy Connor. Right as he was doing that, Cookie Monster would appear and just eat the tray and...

Christian Brim (07:43.912)
Right. Right.

Connor Quinn (08:03.732)
And the camera would do a slow zoom on my face. was just this mayhem that I couldn't understand. know, of course it was planned, but Connor didn't know what was going on. thought they were real. Yeah. And so were the bruises. Yeah. So were the bruises. And, yeah, Connor was sad. I mean, I just, this mayhem, I thought Cookie Monster was my friend, you know, and poor Ernie was trying to help me get cookies.

Christian Brim (08:13.726)
So the tears were real. Like I wanted those cookies. Yeah.

Connor Quinn (08:31.33)
So it was funny and they did a slow zoom because Connor's face was just astonished about what the heck was happening on this damn set. And they brought me back like two or three times. It was a tapioca pudding, you know, for 90 years old. There was Nilla wafers. was every time it was like Charlie Brown in the football. let's bring Connor back and give him cherry pie and see what he does. You know, it's a mess.

Christian Brim (08:53.748)
Did you ever figure it out? they're not gonna give me the cookies.

Connor Quinn (08:56.33)
No. Yeah, I'm just an actor. No, I fell for it every damn time. So I think that's a, you know, because I would ask the, the assistant director, I was like, what's Jim doing? And she's like, Jim is helping Ernie and Frank is helping Cookie Monster. very nice. You know, it's very, I'm so stupid. It was like,

But I think that's what's great. It was, you know, that was the believability that they, because Jim wanted me to talk to Ernie, not to him. Even though I knew in the back of my mind, he's doing the voice, but the magic happened with those eyes and you know, you know, they, at the beginning, they were like, you know, they didn't really have to coach too much, but they were like, you know, look at Ernie. and so you just got, just like today, if you see the Muppets, it's even adult interviewers.

Christian Brim (09:24.762)
No, it's...

Christian Brim (09:32.094)
Right.

Connor Quinn (09:53.487)
put the microphone right to the puppet like, so what do you think about, you know, thinking the voice is coming out is, you

Christian Brim (10:01.52)
Okay, your family moved to Manhattan to support your career? that?

Connor Quinn (10:09.28)
No, basically what happened is with the agents, there was a bunch of us kids, lived in, it was called the Ravensloft Apartments in Los Angeles. was girls and boys, girls on one side, boys on the other.

Christian Brim (10:09.844)
While that went down.

Connor Quinn (10:26.124)
And what they would do is, know, our, my agent, Joni, she was in charge of all of us and she had handlers that took care of us. And so we'd see our parents off and on, but for the most part, we were kind of on our own. Joni was like our mom, dad, everything all wrapped in one. And when we would go to LA or I mean, to New York, then, you know, our family would visit and, that sort of thing, but it's just like, going to work, you know, it's like they.

They had their lives, so they couldn't just stay there. They also had jobs. So we had handlers that took us back and forth to the studios and protected us, thank God, know, especially in the crazy seventies in New York City at that, you know, it's a wonder that anything happened, right?

Christian Brim (10:57.801)
Right.

Christian Brim (11:11.93)
Yeah, it was. I mean, and if you don't want to answer this question, you don't have to. But did you did you feel that like the that experience being away from your parents for a long time as a young child had any adverse effect on your upbringing? Obviously, it was different. But like comparing notes, you know, with normal people like us did.

Connor Quinn (11:30.062)
It was, yeah.

Christian Brim (11:40.158)
Did you did you perceive any disadvantage?

Connor Quinn (11:44.257)
Not really. there's normal, you know, like I remember a few years ago, I was doing on camera, we were shooting for, you know, like NCIS or our show in New York City. And I remember they have, you know, tape up and the spectators are kind of on one side and us actors that are on scene are over here. And a guy waved me over and said, why are you on that side of the yellow line? And I'm here.

Why? I've wanted to be an actor. I was like, so many things went through my mind, but it's like, I didn't have a normal childhood. So I, I sacrificed a lot, just like everybody does in your career. You've made sacrifices. We all make sacrifices. You know, I didn't have the, the proms or the, first dates or, uh, going to a park and playing on a slide or a merry-go-round. Uh, I was busy working, so I didn't have a normal childhood. But at the same time, I'm, if I die tonight, I'm extremely lucky that, um.

Christian Brim (12:21.94)
Mmm.

Connor Quinn (12:42.484)
I had a part in any of this, you know, it's a, it's kind of a responsibility, you know, to, to, especially in, in legendary shows like little house or Sesame street to see those through. know, not that I was, you know, you know, in little house, I was just one of the village idiots. were just like the kids that if they needed a school room shot, they'd hurt all of sudden, you know, but we were there. And we didn't even learn like normal, you know, we had classroom on the set.

with, California, certified teachers, you know, it wasn't a normal classroom. So I wouldn't take that back for anything. Where it did change is I did, you know, when I was a little boy, we did a commercial for Kleenex and it was shot at the Paramount Studios. In fact, they used part of the living room of, the set from, the Brady Bunch. Cause it really hadn't, I mean, it was, it wasn't as iconic as it is today. So they would change stuff and it.

Christian Brim (13:18.77)
Right.

Connor Quinn (13:40.271)
It looked normal. It was part of the decor of that era. And I just remember this is what family feels like because they were shooting it. There was a woman playing my grandmother, my mother, my father, my sister, and they had a Christmas tree. And it's like, this is, I think this is what normal American life is like. And I didn't want that data in, but it's just, it's just a, it's a Kleenex commercial. So it's going to end in two hours. And you know, we've now moved to an Advil commercial or, know, you know.

Captain Crunch, whatever.

Christian Brim (14:11.654)
Yeah. Okay. So fast forward to when you went, I don't know what I would call this, not like take control of your career, but like you became the driving force as opposed to more of a passive participant. what was that transition like?

Connor Quinn (14:32.045)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (14:35.768)
So it happened in layers, you know, so around 89, probably 87, I really started to, you know, once the large people saw that I was not going to be the next James Dean or Paul Newman. It's like, you know, how bad do you want to stay in the industry? Well, I want to say pretty bad. And Michael Landon famously, he gathered all of his children on Little House, including Melissa Gilbert and everybody.

His concern was, is if you want to be in this business, you need to find something else to do. Because odds are you're not going to be an actor. You're just the odds are against it. So he paired us up with other people on the set. know, the, know, someone with a script maybe, and I got with the cameraman, and we learned their job for the day and whatever. It was just his way of saying, you know, there's many things, a multitude of things to do. And I, as a little boy was confused. Like why.

Christian Brim (15:13.79)
Right.

Connor Quinn (15:35.533)
So why are you here? That's why I raised my hand and you know, a little seven year old Connor, he's like, yeah, Connor. And I was like, well, then why are you here? And he's like, so I helped design these, the set out here, know, a mile, you know, a mile an hour north of Los Angeles. You know, I own the property or, know, whatever I leased it, whatever I write the scripts, I direct and,

I empty the porta potties and yeah, and I act. That's what I do. And I sign your paycheck. And you know, everyone's laughing and that sort of thing. as he was leaving that day, he patted me on the head and he says, and you like to talk a lot. I think that what you should do is stick with voiceover. The very first thing you did. So I told my agent and she's like, I think that's a great idea. know, so when...

Christian Brim (16:07.027)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (16:25.374)
Yeah.

Connor Quinn (16:28.974)
you know, the, the looks fade and you know, you know, you get into like, right. think that you need to go back to voiceover. And so anyway, that started in 87. It was a gradual change. Um, move forward to, you know, in the two thousands where my parents were living here in Oklahoma, they got ill. So I flew out here to kind of take care of them, um, with other family members. And then, uh, I just loved it out here. It was just so everyone's it's a different.

Christian Brim (16:32.475)
voice changes.

Connor Quinn (16:58.006)
frame of life. People are nice to you. know, people will open the door for you stuff that I wasn't used to in New York or LA. And I was like, I love this, but there's no traffic. I'll take game day in Norman every day. That's not the 405. You know, so I love that. But then came this, now you, you have to build a studio. I mean, unless you want to fly every day to LA.

Christian Brim (17:11.891)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (17:22.035)
Right.

Connor Quinn (17:22.53)
because technology is catching up and we can, you know, not only use ISDN, which was fading out, we can use stuff like Source Connect and these technical things that allow us to, you know, broadcast from anywhere or record from anywhere. And then came the suddenness of, yeah, what was Joni talking about? Their paperwork? No, I like voicing cartoons. Why isn't the checks coming in? I have...

Christian Brim (17:44.082)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (17:47.465)
Right.

Right.

Connor Quinn (17:51.695)
Oh, I have to invoke what, the hell is an invoice? thought that just magically appeared in the bank account. You mean you have to tell them that the, you, that they owe you like what? Yes. They know that I, they saw me there. They have a record. What the hell is going on? Life is too complicated. I was like, yeah, there's professionals like yourself that handle all the, the, the backend that we as performers don't even think about musicians. mean, just

Christian Brim (18:01.266)
I thought they knew that.

Christian Brim (18:09.352)
Yeah.

Connor Quinn (18:20.512)
Anyone in the arts, that's our brain works differently because we're creative side. But then you also have the people like you had my wonderful friend, Randy Kam. What a great interview. And he's such a sweetheart. I mean, love Randy. He's not, he's like bridging the gap. He's very creative, but he's also extremely technical. He knows more about this monitor in front of me and this Neumann microphone than I, he's forgotten more than I'll ever know.

Christian Brim (18:39.796)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (18:49.364)
Yeah.

Connor Quinn (18:49.644)
But even him, it's like, you know, depending on someone like you that handles all the stuff that we didn't know we should know about.

Christian Brim (18:59.796)
I think, you know, the idea that creatives, and I see this maybe more in certain industries or niches than others, but my daughter moved to West Hollywood several years ago to further her painting career. She's a figurative oil painter. And she thought,

Connor Quinn (19:21.616)
wow, okay.

Christian Brim (19:29.736)
That's where I need to be. And, she took a job, she was teaching art and trying to get into, galleries and she'd have the conversations with these gallery owners. And one of them said, well, yeah, we'll, we'll take on your stuff, but you, you need to lower your prices. And she's one of those rare people that, that does have both sides of her brain engaged.

And she had a little bit of experience. and she had me as a father. I'll go ahead and throw that in there. and she's sitting there saying to herself, hold on a second. You want to me to lower my prices and then you're going to take half or 60%. She's like, I'm, I'm okay with that. I don't need that. But, but she was astonished the line of people behind her that were willing to make that.

concession. And it was just kind of this observation I had and she had simultaneously about how the Hollywood is a great example, but it's not the only place that exists where, know, it happens at Nashville, you know, where, where the talent just gets abused because they can, and there are a lot of people that will take advantage of them because they know if that person says no,

Connor Quinn (20:45.834)
Right.

Christian Brim (20:57.864)
There's someone, some idiot standing behind them. Can you talk about how you've navigated that?

Connor Quinn (21:00.524)
That's right. Yep.

Connor Quinn (21:06.092)
Yeah, it was extremely hard. Even with agents and handlers and a backend team, I didn't believe there was really no team back in the eighties. But when I got to be a teenager, I was doing both on camera and voiceover and it horrible. mean, just it was there's stories all over Hollywood and for decades. there, you know, the guy that was in charge of our accounting took the money and left. I mean, we thought.

It was protected back then, you know, when, well, before that, Screen Actors Guild AFTRA had, the Jackie Coogan law or the Shirley Temple law so that we, you know, as children, you're making money, but it's put away and you can't get it until you're financially an adult, which I think the federal government says it's like 24, you know, or something like that. But that ends when you become 18 or whatever. And then it's like, put it in a sock or whatever you're going to do with it. Well.

Christian Brim (21:46.77)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (21:54.323)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (22:03.019)
You know, at that time, the agents were going to several accounting firms that that's what they were supposedly managing our money. And it ruined a lot of child actors, a lot of normal actors, because you don't know what you don't know. And you're just trusting this person to whatever you got to do, put it in a 401J, whatever, you know, it's like, we don't know what we don't know. And, but you do have a few of the, you you had

Christian Brim (22:15.604)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (22:26.173)
Yeah.

Connor Quinn (22:31.981)
The old I'm talking old school now you have the the Fred Astaire's the Fred McMurray's They were is just as smart as their bookkeeper and they did know they did invest well, so You know if you were the ultimate celebrity then you you had better talent better or not better talent better management better everything So as I got older that became a thing is like you really have to be careful with You know

you're out here in the front lines doing ever, you're not thinking about who's minding the store.

Christian Brim (23:06.726)
Well, and you still see it. I see you see it more so now with like sports talent, right?

Connor Quinn (23:08.781)
Right.

Connor Quinn (23:13.005)
Totally. Yeah. Anytime a management group comes in and says, we will put you on the Discovery Channel. We will put you on MLB or NFL, but here's the thing with management. We own your entire portfolio and we're going to take, you know, 30, 40%, which, know, know, SAG is like, you know, it's 15%, 20 % if you have a regional agent or something like that, 30 to 40 % of everything, even if

Christian Brim (23:16.048)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (23:26.29)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (23:41.223)
Right.

Connor Quinn (23:41.921)
they got you that work or not, that's insane. But that's very common, like you said, especially in the sports world.

Christian Brim (23:48.232)
Do you, this point in your career, retain any intellectual property rights with what you make? Or is that normal to not retain it?

Connor Quinn (23:59.543)
Yeah, for voiceover in particular, you don't, just, it's kind of like a buyout option. You, especially in today's, especially with their, you know, their budget is a lot of them don't have it. And if you're not going to do it, then they'll just go to the next guy. And then you've got something else entering the world, which is AI. So I guess I have, I own intellectual rights with my voice because I don't allow AI to, you know, to replicate it. That's why.

Christian Brim (24:15.646)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (24:27.626)
In interviews, I use this voice, which I never get cast for, you know, so they can do the AI on this voice, but I don't get work for this voice, you know, everything I became like a utilitarian voiceover is what they would call me back in the day is like, so if they couldn't afford Casey Kasem, Connor, Connor will do it. you can't afford Morgan Freeman. I'm Casey Kasem in the land of Dairy Queen. We treat you right.

Christian Brim (24:43.112)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (24:50.494)
Can you do KCKism?

Connor Quinn (24:57.548)
Yeah, it's like, thank you.

Christian Brim (24:57.908)
That's good. That's good. Have you ever done any comedy work?

Connor Quinn (25:05.848)
Yeah, a lot of times, in fact, today, I still to this very day, literally today, I, you know, I'm, I'm, Howard Stern's announcer. So, they, they give me stuff that I cannot see on this program, that plays on Sirius XM. That's, I mean, it takes me to the limit of what I can say is, but the, the creativeness is great. They just let me take it and run with it. A lot of times I give them a lot of dry, if Connor was in charge of casting the voice, this is what I would do.

Christian Brim (25:17.737)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (25:35.915)
so it's fun to just have that ad lib be stupid, be silly, be an eight year old kid, be a teenager. yeah. And the creative or, you know, the stuff I do for, Sesame street, it's very scripted because you have psychologists and teachers, organizing that it's good. got to be very careful with what they do, but that creativity, because this, they have, you know, a half a century of voices, you know, the gym brought us and Jim Henson, Frank Oz,

Christian Brim (25:51.667)
Right.

Connor Quinn (26:05.368)
that they created so we have that world to play in. We can bring those characters to life and the modern audience is different. That's why Sesame Street's theme song is not what you and I grew up with now. It's completely different.

Christian Brim (26:17.926)
Yeah, I was reading and this is a few weeks ago, but honestly, it's something that I had noticed. just hadn't named it that, you know, the, the script writers at Netflix were being told to basically dumb the dialogue down so that people could be looking at their phones while listening to Netflix. I, I mean, I, I would assume that you see things

Connor Quinn (26:34.894)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (26:47.43)
Having been in the industry as long as you have that are unique opportunities the you know, like the just the the chinese character for Confusion or tragedy is also the one they use the same symbol for opportunity Yeah, I don't know I couldn't draw the character if you ask me to I can draw the the chinese character for china That's the it's a circle circle with a line through it. That's it.

Connor Quinn (27:04.564)
okay, wow, I didn't know that.

Right?

Christian Brim (27:16.485)
So do you see any opportunities sitting where you're sitting that this changing landscape is showing you?

Connor Quinn (27:24.322)
Yeah, and of course, the enemy, if you will, is AI, but it's also, you know, we were also finding, of course, it's very helpful. Now more than ever, because I teach acting voiceover to a few students, you know, I'm full time, so don't have the opportunity to have like a room full of students and that sort of thing. But that is a big concern for someone getting in the industry, almost any industry, that AI is going to take over.

Christian Brim (27:32.638)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (27:52.259)
especially in any craft or creative field, especially voiceover that I teach. That's why we need to be more human. We need to not sound like a robot. We need to not sound like, you know, some of those great reads in the seventies and eighties that we grew up with. Even though there's that humanness in it, it's more today about connection. And, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've gone on YouTube and thought, this will be an interesting documentary. And then it starts with that AI voice. I'm like,

Christian Brim (28:01.448)
Mm.

Connor Quinn (28:21.846)
Nope, I'm done. I'm out. I don't care what the subject matter is. It's like they could have hired a kid off of Fiverr to read it. That would have been better, you know.

Christian Brim (28:23.507)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (28:30.706)
Well, yeah, mean, that kind of, you know, what I what I see with technological changes, and it's not just LLMs, it's it's my my professional experience going back to pre internet is that what what and we were having this conversation last week is the cost of production of content is essentially zero now.

Connor Quinn (28:36.141)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Connor Quinn (28:43.758)
Right.

Christian Brim (28:58.226)
And that's video, that's written word, that's audio. You can create any content for nothing. Okay. So what does that mean? It means that the people that weren't going to spend money on those things now have a new opportunity to make shit. But I think that most of those people shouldn't be making shit, right? I mean, like when you talk about a documentary,

Connor Quinn (29:00.526)
everything.

Connor Quinn (29:04.984)
That's right.

Connor Quinn (29:18.53)
That's right.

Connor Quinn (29:24.034)
That's right.

Christian Brim (29:28.09)
If they're not going to pay someone to read and use an AI voice, what is the level of competence of the rest of it?

Connor Quinn (29:37.899)
Exactly. They're going to use stock footage because they're not going to invest in any proper video library or actually pay research to the CBS archives to get Lucille Ball in episode four. They're going to get an AI rendered. You know, it's horrible. So we're going through this thing where a low, where the low hanging fruit get removed and AI. in the voiceover world, we call what we call IVR, which is, you know,

If this is who you're calling, say yes. You know, that's, it's a, you know, a voice response system. And so that low hanging fruit of on hold and that sort of thing that unfortunately has gone to, or fortunately it's gone to AI because it's minimal type of thing. Over the longterm, you wouldn't want to hear it in an audio book. just, wears out the listener. I mean, AI is very close to replicating a human voice with attitude and with it, but

Christian Brim (30:10.738)
Mmm, yeah.

Connor Quinn (30:33.848)
There's just something that sparks knowing it's a human that will never be replaced. So I think after we get out of this lull, people are starving and they're starving now for real entertainment, real humans. know, we've destroyed Hollywood. know, we very few people go to the cinema on the 20 foot screen to see Brad Pitt or whoever. Because my nephew can, you know, film something similar, have AI write the script, he can shoot it on his iPhone.

we have, we don't need Morgan Freeman. have an AI voice that can try to sound like him. But YouTube, when it came out, it was the same way. had a whole bunch of people who are not funny, not creative with cameras, creating content and people just kind of put up with it like, this is cute. Yeah. Okay. We're playing jokes in the mall. we're okay. It's a documentary and they have not done subject research or we've just kind of put up with it. And as an old man, it's like I've.

Christian Brim (31:22.951)
Right.

Connor Quinn (31:32.675)
You know, I feel like we've dumbed ourselves down. So you're right. Even commercials. We say and replicate a lot of things over and over. You know, our attention spans diminish. When I started, the standard was a 60 second commercial. I haven't done a 60 second commercial. I don't know how long. I don't even do thirties. They're usually 15, maybe 10 or 15 or maybe five. Get Geico. It pays. You know, it's like just boom. And there it is.

Christian Brim (31:48.008)
Mm.

Christian Brim (31:59.796)
That's all the human brain can handle anymore. Yeah. Well.

Connor Quinn (32:03.97)
because there's too much coming into us, you know? Used to be when we were bored on an airplane, we would read the barf bag.

Christian Brim (32:12.966)
I'm not going to admit to that. I, was, I went, it was, it was April after GPT had come out in October and November. So six months in, I went to an AI, conference, that Perry Marshall, hosted. he's, he's a tenured marketer, our age author. And he had this guy.

Connor Quinn (32:14.645)
Yeah, man.

Connor Quinn (32:25.88)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (32:42.93)
that was a neuroscientist come and speak. And he said that when they have a standard test that they give all incoming Army personnel, enlisted men. And he said that World War II when they did this assessment, it's the same assessment they've used for 70 years. The average

score was 10th grade for incoming infantrymen enlisted men. He said, and this was pre LLM, because we're just six months into it. He said that score now is eighth grade. And he attributed it to the lack of reading. And he said that the switch to primarily video

Connor Quinn (33:17.718)
Okay, right, right.

Connor Quinn (33:25.344)
Right.

Christian Brim (33:41.62)
but also listening, versus reading is a different process in the brain. And it, it actually was a limiting factor in our overall cognition. And his, his solution was, he said, not only do you need to read, you need to read what

Connor Quinn (34:00.079)
you

Christian Brim (34:05.84)
you don't normally read. So if you don't normally read poetry, read poetry. If you don't normally read history, read history. And then write about it. And and I find that fascinating because if you think about all of our education, the the emphasis on reading and writing, you know, that has largely gone away. My my my kids are all adults.

Connor Quinn (34:20.693)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (34:27.406)
right.

Christian Brim (34:35.3)
Now, but even going through their high school experience, they were lamenting how much reading and writing they were having to do. They were part of the International Baccalaureate Program, and it was very rigorous. But then when they all got to college, they were like they were seeing their peers like struggling with writing a 500 word essay. And they're like, I can do that in 15 minutes. Like, I don't even know what you're stressed about.

Connor Quinn (34:51.177)
okay.

Connor Quinn (35:04.556)
What?

Christian Brim (35:06.108)
Right? But that that I think is the antidote for those of us that don't want to be dumbed down is to continue to read and to write.

Connor Quinn (35:18.062)
I think you're right. And, know, it goes back to the days of Lincoln. mean, you know, I don't, I don't, making up the numbers, but his, uh, Oh, close just a day off. But you know, his, in those days, you know, like politicians, like I have no idea how long it lasts, but it's just like, for example, when they, the orders, when they would get up, people would pay attention. had longer attention spans because they had less distractions. And I know that generation complained to my parents who were the silent generation that

Christian Brim (35:23.412)
You weren't that old. You were not alive.

Christian Brim (35:41.352)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (35:47.467)
You're getting dumber. Well, even as me as Gen X was coming in, know, Joan Ganz Cooney, who created Sesame Street, the reason she created it was because her little girl, a Gen Xer would come home and she didn't know her ABCs or numbers, but she knew the words to the Budweiser commercial. So Joan talked to a friend of hers that's a psychologist said, why? And he said, well, that's how this generation is learning. They're learning in 30 second gaps. So if you create a show.

Christian Brim (35:49.182)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:02.964)
Mmm.

Connor Quinn (36:16.808)
And you have 30 second skits that teaches them three letters, maybe some numbers, how to say closed in Spanish, different things that they use to navigate their world. They'll learn. we took to it like, you know, anything. It was great because there's music, there's jingles. That's what we grew up with was, you know, now jingles are passe. We really don't have jingles to, you know, occasionally one will pop up. But I also think that's why this generation with kids, they cannot watch a show without the captions on.

Christian Brim (36:33.715)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (36:44.962)
They need the body saying we need to read. It's like they almost can't understand. I'm sorry. Even though I can plainly tell what they're saying. They're like, yeah, we need captions on what I'm sorry. What did he say? It's like.

Christian Brim (36:57.484)
You describe the argument I have with my wife every time we watch something that was produced by the BBC. She's like, I can't understand it because you're not paying attention. Yes, is different. It is a different accent. But if you actually intentionally listen, you can understand. But you can't.

Connor Quinn (37:03.584)
Yeah

Connor Quinn (37:09.898)
Right

Connor Quinn (37:15.782)
Totally and get the onscreen references to he's talking about a taxi the telly. yeah, he means the television. Okay. Yeah, you're right

Christian Brim (37:18.662)
Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And this is another interesting point. They're talking about the impact of devices and media on young children now. And they were talking about how quickly the image changes. And it's like down to like three seconds.

and how detrimental that is to the child brain. And I guess they're now like separate programming that are like kind of like Sesame Street. They're saying, no, we're going to go back to a standard that's not going to damage our kids and is going to actually help them. to your point, like if it's

If technology runs its course, it just goes to the lowest common denominator. And that is not good for us as humans.

Connor Quinn (38:19.68)
Alright.

No, I, you know, it's like, I, I think of a cat, uh, cats were normal. when you and I were children is like, you just played with cats, but then somewhere in the nineties or somewhere, they invented this laser thing and now they've gone crazy. I mean, it loses its frigging mind. You put the laser dot, the little red bug and they go ape crap. Like, so I think it's the same way with humans where, you know,

Christian Brim (38:33.31)
Yes.

Christian Brim (38:46.121)
Yes.

Connor Quinn (38:50.542)
Uh, you know, here a while back, a friend of mine, so I did, uh, I was doing pickup announcing for America's Got Talent. And the, uh, body of mine was telling his teenage son, Hey, Connor is going to be on NBC tonight. And the kid said, what's an NBC?

I was like, my God. In my day, you know, three channels, four, you count PBS, what? I forget, you know, and then he said, on Peacock. And he's like, the app. Okay. Yeah. Then he knew he didn't know what an NBC was.

Christian Brim (39:17.598)
Well, that

Christian Brim (39:23.89)
Well, yeah, I, that's what partly made me who I am is that there were only four channels and I watched a lot of PBS and therefore Doctor Who and Monty Python. So that's, that's a corrupt, yes, corrupted my mind. So, so go back, going back to the question of like what the opportunities are. think authenticity is a hundred percent. I mean, like that's, that's a gold right there.

Connor Quinn (39:37.076)
Absolutely. And Benny Hill, if no one was watching.

Connor Quinn (39:49.39)
1000. Yeah.

Christian Brim (39:53.776)
Any other niches where you see opportunity? Let me, let me back up a second. Okay. last week we had a gathering of core clients and we curated a group. had 10,

creative business owners from all over the country, converge on Oklahoma city for two days. And, one of them was, I don't even remember his title. It had something to do with video, and photography. And he was, there is a name for it, but essentially what he did was he's on set supporting the photographer or the videographer.

Connor Quinn (40:14.871)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (40:41.422)
Okay, gotcha.

Christian Brim (40:42.132)
And like his job description is, you know, pretty much anything, but his, his, you know, the way he described it, that I understood it was like he made the photographer so that they could do their job. And he, was a buffer. He, handled everything in between. And this guy was not an old guy. He's in his thirties. But he was talking about how the sands are shifting because agency work.

Connor Quinn (41:00.109)
Right.

Christian Brim (41:09.908)
Agencies and large production houses are going through radical change. And that was who used to pay him. And how he was transitioning and when he first showed up, there was a lot of anxiety about it. Like all of this is happening, all these changes. I don't know what's going to happen. By the end of this conversation, literally was 24 hours talking to these other creative professionals.

His mind was blown thinking around like what opportunities there were now. Like, so I'm looking for something similar from you, like sitting where you're sitting. What, what, changes do you see where there might be opportunities?

Connor Quinn (41:51.436)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (41:56.365)
So I, and a lot of it, think we've thought of ourselves, he does that job, he does that job, she does that job. And now it's like, it's a lot of people to survive. It's a gig economy. So it's like being able to do a turnkey business where you handle, like for example, Crayola, they don't go through a creative agency. They don't through a production. go right to me and I provide, you know, you know, needle drop music. provide.

Christian Brim (42:10.611)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (42:20.852)
Mm.

Connor Quinn (42:25.674)
I even helped them with scripting ideas. I charge for that, but I'm doing stuff that has never been in my comfort zone, but I see a need for it. That's why I got the, the Crayola account and you know, I've had them for like 15 years. They don't go through a production house. go right to Connor. now they go to other people for other projects. So I think at the, at the core of all this, if you like what I did there, you know, at the core of, yeah. So anyway, yeah, thank you. thank you.

Christian Brim (42:34.344)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (42:38.525)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (42:42.163)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (42:51.902)
I love that. Very good.

Connor Quinn (42:55.606)
So at the, at the, at the base of all of this is the ability to storytell effectively, whether that is through photography, through whatever now more than ever, you know, at the beginning of cinema, for those that, you know, took a film school, you know, the great train robbery that was just, it was just the using the modern things at the time film and projecting on a big screen and scaring a room full of people thinking a train's coming.

Christian Brim (43:02.292)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (43:14.59)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (43:24.787)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (43:25.302)
Now we've modified it all these years to where we're now getting back into, I, yeah, all of my emails are answered by chat GPT. It's, it's a toy and we all get these text messages that are, he doesn't use that word or he doesn't put, what's called dashes double hyphens. He doesn't use that, but chat GPT does. So I love it when someone messes up in a, in a, I'm sure, you know, we're putting this out there. I'm sure chat GPT will have a filter now with 1%.

Christian Brim (43:42.396)
Right.

Connor Quinn (43:54.831)
mistakes so that it looks even more human. because now what I'm teaching, voiceover actors.

Christian Brim (43:56.788)
Mmm.

Connor Quinn (44:04.62)
with voiceover, not about film, but I believe this is Connor. So, you know, crucify me, but I think the industry voiceover is going away from agents and going more direct and say, can you also do music? Can you also video edit? Can you also do this? It's becoming a turnkey type of thing. Not so much for the on-camera actors, but a lot of the cool stuff. mean, Disney's non or not Disney, but Crayola is non-union. do a lot of non-union that I'm a FICOR.

Christian Brim (44:18.408)
Mm-hmm.

Connor Quinn (44:33.614)
meaning that I can do both union and non-union through the union. But more and more stuff is getting away from the union stuff because they don't have the budgets for it. They don't want to pay for your health care. Look, I just, want to give you $500 for this voiceover. Can we just call it a day? You know, so if you don't do it, someone else will. And so I think that it's all those things that you and I talked about have to come to the forefront. do need to, this generation does need to learn about telling stories. They need to learn about doing research and

because people are going to start craving that. And we're going to go back through this, you you know, the, you know, different ages and epics that we've gone through in our history, where people are going to crave real quality, real narration, real storytelling, real, and yeah, use the gimmicks and, and AI and the film and all that stuff, the latest digital to help you as tools, but they want that human spark. So, you know, I'd say everyone drives a different car. So one guy might have a Mitsubishi.

The one guy has a BMW or Rolls Royce, blah, blah, blah. But there's always going to be someone with a Hyundai. There's always going to be someone that's driving a Chevrolet. There's people riding a horse. When the horse, when the car was invented, the horse didn't go away. It just changed forms. So again, I think that's, you know, I think that's what we are. So being scared of it, there's plenty of opportunities to adapt where you start learning and putting more tools in your tool belt to be a pretty productive.

Christian Brim (45:46.323)
Yes.

Connor Quinn (46:00.879)
a productive producer, you know, that you're going to have to learn other stuff. And I think that's where we're at where we just have to, everything's consolidating and you know, they're, you know, shedding people by the millions, you know, it's like, look at the radio industry. You've got like, uh, you know, one guy in a, in a building running three stations and voice tracking, know, you got someone in Seattle voice tracking Oklahoma city. And you know, like at 50 Penn place, you used to have, you know,

both floors filled with broadcasters, KT okay. And you had the news and you had like, you know, 10 different stations with, at that time clear channel and all doing their thing. And now it's like, you've got one or two guys just minding the store, making sure the, automation rolls through and that, that Jim in Vancouver delivers his lines on time, you know? So I think that people are going to get tired of that. They are tired of that. They, know,

they're sick of that YouTube mentality and they real entertainment, they want everything. That's just what I think. I think there's plenty of opportunities, you know.

Christian Brim (47:06.227)
No, I think you're spot on and it echoes the discussion we had last week. And listeners, if you've stuck with us this long, because you got the gold is storytelling. That's the gold as well as multi-talented.

Connor Quinn (47:19.67)
Right, and the code word is grapes. There we go.

Yes.

Totally.

Christian Brim (47:32.04)
Because sitting around the table with these clients, they were talking about their experience of like, if I have to, if I'm hired a second shooter, and Hey, can you gaff as well? Rather than I've got to go find a separate gaffer and deal with coordinating more people. Like I'm going to hire the guy and I'm going to pay them more.

Connor Quinn (47:57.166)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (47:57.556)
not as much as I would pay two people, but I'll hire the person that is, is flexible and be, you know, has multi-talents because I don't want to have to manage the body and this idea of shifting, you know, this may sound counterintuitive when I say it, but it's not really not focusing on

Connor Quinn (48:13.122)
Right.

Christian Brim (48:25.338)
necessarily your skills or your experience as you're deliverable, but looking for problems to solve. Because if you're locked in of, only do, you know, I only shoot video in your situation. I only do voice acting, but you're not comfortable going out and doing script writing. Okay. Partner with someone else.

Connor Quinn (48:34.54)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (48:52.498)
but someone's looking for one solution to the problem. They're not looking to hire a bunch of people.

Connor Quinn (48:55.98)
Yeah. So enter the boutique production companies, the boutique voiceover, you know, houses. And that's what we're seeing. You know, the Leo Burnett agencies in Chicago and Madison Avenue, New York, those, those are going away. It's like, because they're ineffective. They were, you know, you know, they're white guys in their forties telling people how to eat Jell-O and

Christian Brim (49:00.754)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (49:10.139)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Connor Quinn (49:19.166)
not really dealing with the housewife and the house husband that says, no, that's not the way you do it. I do this. You know, that's, that's changed. People are wanting real, you know, look at the stuff we eat now. It's like the, the Coke that we drink now is not the same as it was in the seventies. you know, everything is, is, getting cleaner and you know, more efficient. therefore, yeah, the, the need for a boutique agency where, you know, you might, like you say, you have,

You know, Linda, does voiceover, Bill does video. So that's an opportunity for someone who, and even to learn the technology like AI. Like, I use it, especially in long form narration. It's not great to hear a fake Connor read an audio book, but what it is is when I get notes back from the author that says, you know, you're on chapter 89 now, but way back in chapter two, you mispronounced his name. Well, then I can have my AI go in and correct that name.

Christian Brim (50:16.743)
Right.

Connor Quinn (50:16.78)
without having to hold, so there's ways of that to where we use technology to our advantage. And I think once we quit fearing it and once we quit trying to scare others that yeah, there's ways of getting a handle on this and the human element's not gonna go away. If anything, there's gonna be a price on that that I feel privileged when I'm like, my God, there's real humans, real footage. It wasn't AI created because it's still at this...

Christian Brim (50:38.068)
100%.

Connor Quinn (50:46.83)
you can spot an AI image immediately. It's like, oh my God, that's horrible.

Christian Brim (50:51.518)
Well, and that also is one of the things that this group of clients came to the conclusion of like how important your relationships are. 100 % because it's not just putting a team together to be able to solve a problem. It's also that trust factor that like people know that when Connor says he's going to do XYZ that it's going to happen. I'm not going to have to wonder.

Connor Quinn (51:00.014)
It's yeah more so than ever Like no

Connor Quinn (51:19.18)
Yeah, I'm not going to ghost him. just like for us to be here today was a social relationship that we built over a long time. I mean, it was like, then the multitude, the people you know, and I know, you know, some of the core sanctioned events, it was incredible. The amount of people that knew you that I didn't, I hadn't met you yet. Like for example, your relationship with Randy, that was, it's enlightening to see that that's the core of relationships. Core. There you go. Checks in the mail.

Christian Brim (51:25.257)
Correct.

Christian Brim (51:39.123)
Right.

Christian Brim (51:47.79)
And you're good. You're good.

Connor Quinn (51:49.292)
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. That's why I'm a writer. I mean a voiceover.

Christian Brim (51:54.932)
Yeah

Connor, how can people learn more about you and what you do, your coaching, et cetera? How do they do that?

Connor Quinn (52:03.438)
Go to my website, is V O X G U Y VoxGuy.com Vox is Latin for voice. So that's why the weird name, but it's a short, I think it's great for a website or on any of my socials like LinkedIn, they can find me and just reach out. And I don't have a lot of space because you know, I'm a full-time voiceover, but I do love to help, you know, train people to get in the industry.

Christian Brim (52:16.754)
Yes.

Connor Quinn (52:31.586)
But just like any other industry, there's predators out there that is saying you, you've got to learn this type of cinematography or this type of voiceover. It's like, no, you know, it's, it's like, I always tell students, can you do anything else? And they go, yeah. I'm like, go do that. Because I don't have a plan B. This is all I, I cannot build a car. cannot fix a car. I barely can put gas in the car. I have no plan B. I've done this from the beginning of time. And, so you really.

Christian Brim (52:48.084)
Mmm.

Connor Quinn (53:01.558)
I think in the creative, especially creative fields, you have to really want it. Like I've knew nothing else but voiceover and acting. And that's all I've wanted to do. And I know not everyone's in that. You know, it's like, there's a lot of people that, at 45 it's like, I'm going to be a florist. You know, it's like, it just comes to them or whatever. I can't relate to that. I only know this. So I'm, I'm amazed at people outside the industry, like in LA.

Christian Brim (53:07.38)
Mmm.

Connor Quinn (53:29.602)
The best guest you can bring to the party is not another actor that slept with Marlon Brando or acted with Julia Roberts. The best guy is like, what do you do? Yeah, I work at 7-Eleven. what? my. We've got questions. That's the thing, because everybody's an actor. The one I got with my first big gig doing, not Transformers, I was a kid, but like.

Christian Brim (53:44.679)
Yes.

Connor Quinn (53:57.186)
the gummy bears in the eighties, nineties. I was so excited. I got off the phone with my agent and my mailman was just showing up and I was like, my God, I'm going to be on the gummy bears, you know, for Disney. And he was like, yeah, that's a Rob, Rob Tolwater is the producer. He's a jerk. You need to really watch that. My mailman had a better agency than I did. He was with the William Morris agency. He's a mailman. So the joke in Hollywood, you know, as you know, is probably, you know,

Christian Brim (54:22.077)
Wow.

Connor Quinn (54:26.162)
I'm an actor and you go, really? Where do you wait tables at? And even now it's more important than ever because it's a gig economy. It's like, you know, we're finding all of ourselves doing stuff that we didn't know we could do, but we're reaching in and growing as humans. know, the new kids are going, wow, this thing called reading is really the three Rs they used to call it. What a thing. They couldn't spell arithmetic, but.

Christian Brim (54:29.14)
Yeah, 100%.

Christian Brim (54:43.623)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (54:50.644)
You might want to check it out. Well, they weren't very good at the other two.

Connor Quinn (54:56.054)
Yeah. No, that's okay. And I don't, I don't think they can, I can at least sign my name, you know, it's messy, but they can't sign their name. They don't know cursive.

Christian Brim (55:04.241)
What?

No, they can't read it for sure.

Connor Quinn (55:08.758)
Yeah, so put it in a car so they don't steal your car. Make sure it's a stick shift and the directions for how to do it are incursive and you'll be safe.

Christian Brim (55:12.509)
Yes.

Christian Brim (55:15.892)
you're completely safe. Thank you, Connor, for coming on the show. This has been everything I expected. Listeners will have his links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like Connor, there's something wrong with you. But you know, if you don't let us know and we'll find someone else. And until next time, ta ta for now.

Connor Quinn (55:21.388)
Well, thank you.

Connor Quinn (55:27.214)
Thank you.

Connor Quinn (55:35.918)
Yeah.

Connor Quinn (55:40.076)
Right, yeah.