Why Does Story Beat Strategy Every Time? | Graham Kuhn

PROFITABLE TALKS...

On this episode of The Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim sits down with Graham Kuhn of Focus Films to unpack what it really takes to build a profitable creative business—from mindset to messaging to money.

Graham shares his journey from opera singer to full-time entrepreneur, including the terrifying leap into business ownership right as the world shut down in 2020. What followed wasn’t just survival—it was a transformation in how he thinks about storytelling, pricing, and value.

PROFITABLE TAKEAWAYS...

This conversation dives deep into:

•  Why storytelling—not features—drives real connection and sales 
•  The hidden struggle of imposter syndrome (even for confident creatives) 
•  How inconsistent cash flow forces better discipline and visibility 
•  Why pricing isn’t about hours—but about outcomes and value 
•  The mindset shift that unlocks higher-paying clients 
•  How to sell without feeling “salesy” 
•  Why the wrong clients will drain your business (and how to avoid them) 

If you’ve ever struggled with charging what you’re worth, feeling confident in your work, or building a sustainable creative business—this episode will challenge and equip you.

Because at the end of the day, your value isn’t determined by your effort—it’s determined by the impact you create.

Join our community of creative entrepreneurs and get a free copy of our No-BS Guide To Making Your Creative Business Actually Profitable delivered straight to your inbox. We’ll share smart, simple tips to help you keep more of what you earn—no boring accountant talk, we promise.  
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Transcript

Christian Brim (00:00.14)
use it for promotional purposes. I think they do some clips on YouTube, but the podcast is I don't I don't know I have a face for radio. So I

Graham Kuhn (00:04.716)
Yeah, but I need to make sure that I am presentable because there may be video.

Otherwise, I'd be like this if it was just audio, but since there might be a video like this.

Christian Brim (00:14.672)
No, totally. I mean, I knew that I did not want to mess with all of the extra elements of video with lighting and editing. I'm like, and I never did my own auto edit audio editing. I'm like, I'm not going to learn a new skill. Thank you. So Randy Kemp is our audio engineer and he is an OG expert. so he can make us all sound good.

Graham Kuhn (00:23.447)
Yeah.

Graham Kuhn (00:31.704)
Hahaha

Graham Kuhn (00:41.432)
Very nice. Well, I'll do my best.

Christian Brim (00:44.556)
Okay, I missed the countdown. Here we go. Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Mincie, Indiana. I hope I pronounced that correctly, but if I didn't, thank you for listening anyway. Joining me today, Graham Kuhn. Graham Kuhn.

from Focus Film Studios. Graham, welcome to the show.

Graham Kuhn (01:17.432)
Thank you. Thank you very much, Christian. I always say Graham Kuhn with focus films so I don't get tongue tied.

Christian Brim (01:23.76)
That's good. I had a pledge brother in college whose last name was Coon and I haven't seen that name for 35 years.

Graham Kuhn (01:32.589)
wow, there's not, yeah, there's not many of us.

Christian Brim (01:34.928)
Yeah. Whereabouts do you live?

Graham Kuhn (01:37.283)
I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, just north of Atlanta in Woodstock, Georgia.

Christian Brim (01:41.274)
Very nice. Okay, so tell us about focus films.

Graham Kuhn (01:45.902)
Yeah. So, um, I actually started, I went to college to be an opera singer. I'm a music guy. And through that, I started, I started working at this big, um, this big church in Atlanta and I was doing music and, and they found out, uh, you, you've made videos before. I'm like, well, I mean, someone like highlight videos for sports teams in high school and college, but they're like, Hey, we'd like to start making videos. So from 2007, 2020, I was cranking out two or three videos every week. And so, uh, got pretty good at it, but

Christian Brim (01:50.914)
Okay.

Graham Kuhn (02:15.874)
By 2020 side hustle got too big and I had to make a decision. Am I going to slow down the side hustle so that I can actually have an hour to sleep or are we going to quit the salary job with benefits and my wife's a stay at home mom and three kids and 45 years old, I took the leap into business ownership and being self-employed. So that's the origin story of Focus Films, but really what I love about what we do is taking the storytelling.

perspective and really digging in deep with our clients with the owner of the company and really why they do what they do, rather than focusing on, know, features and benefits of the business or, you know, warranties or how many years they've been in business, but really the story of why they do it. And that's what I really love making those connections. And I feel like that's what really connects with their viewer and their potential customer is

the storytelling aspect and showing the person behind the brand. the way that we make people comfortable on camera is we just do interviews like we're doing right now. Like we sit down across from each other with two cameras and we just have a conversation and we try to dig deep like a therapy session and I try to make them cry. And then that's how we do it. And that's how people look comfortable on camera and we get that real heartfelt story that sets them apart from their competition.

Christian Brim (03:40.76)
Yeah, I love that. It's all, you know, I think people are coming to come back to the realization. Maybe some of them never left that it's all about story. I don't know. I don't really carry, care what medium you're in. So I had a Connor Quinn on the show recently. He's a, one of the OG voice actors and,

Graham Kuhn (03:52.12)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (04:09.416)
He was talking about the guy. He took lessons from the guy that did the voice for Yogi Berra. I don't remember his name. Not Yogi Berra. Yogi Bear for Hanna Barbera. he was describing to him that like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've got a whole story behind Yogi the Bear. Like, why does he wear a tie and why does he wear that hat? And like, there's just this whole story behind him that

Graham Kuhn (04:17.77)
Okay. Yogi bear. Yeah.

Christian Brim (04:39.178)
shows up in the character, but nobody ever knows about, nobody ever hears, right? And I think whatever the medium is, what is compelling to humans, the human brain is the story. We're wired that way, as Donald Miller would say, and it's the emotional connection, that's how you connect with people. So.

What was that transition like at 45? That's a little longer in the game than a lot and you you you I don't want to say changed careers, but sort of What was that like?

Graham Kuhn (05:24.366)
Yeah, it was absolutely terrifying. So I mean, I'm not going to lie. Like my wife had been a stay at home mom. That's what she wanted to do. We were single income. I had three small kids at home. I think there were about two, four and six or something like that. Maybe three, seven or something. But, um, it was terrifying because my last day at my salary job was March 13th, 2020. And we had planned to make this leap.

I had a full book of clients. I had contracted about $100,000 worth of projects between May and August that year. And I my salary was $57,000. So $100,000 in work over a few months is like, my gosh. And so I had a full book of clients, I had a monthly retainer, we had saved up like six months of saving six months of expenses. Like, I mean, we couldn't have prepared more and made it a more

perfect transition than we did. Unfortunately, March 13th was my last day. March 16th, everything shut down. All of those contracts went away. Eventually that monthly retainer went away and it was absolutely terrifying. So I had a much scarier transition than most, but long story short, got through it, got to do some really cool things that I would not have otherwise done. Like I got to travel to California and Texas and do some videos for Nokia that

Christian Brim (06:30.672)
Mmm.

Graham Kuhn (06:51.564)
was not, you in the plan. I got to live stream some Jewish high holidays. Like I was working in a Catholic church. I'd never been in a Jewish synagogue in my life. One of my friends is Jewish. He's like, Hey, can you live stream our services? And I'm like, yeah, I can do that. So I had some cool opportunities and that year turned out really great. But yes, about how that transition one is, it was absolutely terrifying. But one thing I love to talk about is just pushing through fear, pushing through imposter syndrome.

You know, I was having self doubt and like, maybe I wasn't supposed to do this. Maybe I'm not destined to be an entrepreneur, you know, just beating myself up over something I could not control at all. My wife is screaming at me to beg for my job back. My father in law is calling me saying, Hey man, you need to call, get your job back. And I was just like, you know, I, have money coming in from last month. We have savings. And I know that if I go back to that guaranteed salary and that comfortable

Christian Brim (07:30.435)
Right.

Graham Kuhn (07:48.544)
situation, I'm never going to have the guts to take this leap again. I just I don't feel called to go back and get my job back. Because I mean, the three most addictive things in life are heroin, carbohydrates and a monthly salary. And I knew if I went back to that salary, I was going to that was going to be it. So long story short, it was terrifying. But almost six years later, it's been amazing. Wait, what's today?

Christian Brim (08:05.495)
Mmm.

Graham Kuhn (08:17.869)
my gosh, March 10th. So in three days, it's going to be my six year anniversary since having a day job. That is awesome, man. That's awesome.

Christian Brim (08:21.658)
Congratulations.

Christian Brim (08:25.976)
Yeah, I had a similar conversation with myself at age 27 when I started my business and I, I thought, well, I knew that if I continued on down this road, it would be harder and harder to quit. And, at 27, I had two young children. mine were like three and less than one. but I didn't have anything. So I thought, well, you know,

Graham Kuhn (08:50.978)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (08:56.206)
anything to lose. I'm pretty sure that's not the way my wife perceived it. but I had this idea that like it w would, the longer I stayed in it, the harder it would be. And, you know, to your point, borrowed money, to, to buy the franchise, use my credit cards to go do the in-person training in California for three weeks and

I came back and it was like there was no net, there was nothing but success as an option and that is an amazing motivator. You can't replicate it, right? You can't go back and recreate that situation.

Graham Kuhn (09:34.371)
Yeah.

Graham Kuhn (09:43.692)
Yep. Yeah. And actually that's part of my story too, is like not having a safety net. Like I am, I actually flunked out of college. I mean, I just, discovered the, the wonders of partying in college and I, after three years, they were like, you gotta go dude. and, I got back in a petition. I went for two marries, but I didn't finish because I got a singing job in Atlanta. So I moved to Atlanta for the singing job. There's no degree. There's no safety net. There's no plan B as they say.

Christian Brim (09:55.664)
Hmm?

Christian Brim (10:11.662)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (10:13.184)
And so that really motivates you to like figure things out and you've got to make it. You can't just walk into an office and give the resume and be like, you have a bachelor's degree so you can get this job. I was so not qualified for so many jobs because I didn't have that degree. So there's no safety in that. That's a huge motivator. And then just just taking that leap and just having nothing to fall back on where it's like, hey, man, it's it's all up to you.

Christian Brim (10:16.986)
Yeah.

Graham Kuhn (10:40.184)
to be the provider. And I will say after that first year, I let my ego get in the way. I got pretty proud of myself. We'd done, you know, the revenue was about 180,000 and I'm like, my gosh, I am like killing it here. And so I took off like the month of December, like, the kids are home from school for Christmas. I'm the, I'm business owner. I don't have to work, man. I came back that January, had nothing in the funnel, no pipeline. It took me the whole first quarter to get things ramped up again. So ever since then, I've tried to,

Christian Brim (11:04.793)
Hmm.

Graham Kuhn (11:10.798)
keep my ego in check, not take my foot off the gas and you you live and you learn. But yeah, I was like, I got this figured out. I'm not gonna work this month. Idiot. I did not fill my pipeline.

Christian Brim (11:23.856)
The the I heard the founder of Boston market Speak to a group of entrepreneurs and he has a very Italian very Boston Accent, so he's very hard to understand But he said, know business is simple is he said it's either getting the business or doing the business and I'm like Yeah

Graham Kuhn (11:45.784)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (11:48.29)
It really is that simple, right? You know, it's everything you deal with is one of those two problems. okay. So six years, almost six years, what were some of the biggest challenges you didn't expect? mean, like you had some expectation because you'd been side hustling and doing it, but like what, what were, what was the one you didn't know?

Graham Kuhn (11:50.179)
Yeah.

Graham Kuhn (12:10.914)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (12:16.59)
Yeah, I'm torn between two of them. One was imposter syndrome. Like I'm a pretty confident guy. I'm very outgoing. I've always been pretty successful. I didn't expect that crippling imposter syndrome. Like, I'm not good enough. Like, that was interesting for me. But then the other thing was the roller coaster that your PNL is, because you're so accustomed or I was accustomed for, you know, I was 45. So God, I'd been working for 30 years.

Christian Brim (12:38.572)
Mmm.

Graham Kuhn (12:45.592)
You're just used to getting that paycheck every two weeks and it just shows up in the account and it's just you take it for granted. But that first time you get a little low on money and your wife goes, well, do you have any money coming in? You're like, no. my God, what am I going to do? And then the next month you might do 30 grand. And then the next month you do 1200. And it's like, if you don't have those consistent like monthly retainers and things like that.

Christian Brim (12:48.235)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (13:06.499)
Right.

Right.

Graham Kuhn (13:14.126)
just the up and down and the inconsistency of the P &L took a lot of getting used to. So that, I mean, I was probably naive that that was a surprise to me, but it's just a different feeling when all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, there's not a paycheck going in the account Friday. Like you have to make it happen, you know?

Christian Brim (13:27.578)
Sure.

Christian Brim (13:33.528)
Yeah. So how did you, what was your solution to that inconsistent cashflow? How did you solve that?

Graham Kuhn (13:41.368)
Just being more consistent with my outreach, being more consistent. For me, the way I sell is I show up in the community, whether it's on Facebook pages, Facebook groups, local networking is I enjoy serving people. I believe that what we do has a value. I believe you can help people. And so I try to be a leader in my community and build my network and form more relationships. So the more consistent I am with networking and doing outreach and posting on social media,

Christian Brim (14:05.392)
Hmm.

Graham Kuhn (14:10.508)
the more relationships I make, which leads to more consistent work instead of the, the one off $10,000 project. And that's all I'm hyper focused on for a month. And then you get to the next month and it's like, my gosh, there's nothing else. So it's balancing the work with the networking, but just really being consistent, never resting on my laurels, never being comfortable and just continuing to show up. Like I'm this month that we're recording is March.

I believe I'm on pace to have the highest revenue month I've ever had in six years, but I'm not stopping because I mean, I know I've got to keep showing up. I can't just sit here and like work on these projects. I've got to keep showing up and networking and making myself known and serving people. And so that's really how I solved is being more consistent with relationships and networking and meeting more people and consistently talking about my business. And really one of my friends calls it being impossible to ignore.

It's like, God, you're posting every day. You're always on LinkedIn. You're always on Facebook. And I'm like, yeah, I'm impossible to ignore. Somebody thinks video. They're like, hey, that guy in Atlanta, that Graham guy, you know.

Christian Brim (15:05.296)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (15:17.696)
I love that. actually was secretly hoping that you'd say, well, yeah, I implemented Profit first. And that's how I was able to.

Graham Kuhn (15:26.358)
So it's interesting. One of my mentors taught me about profit first. And it was funny you said about the credit card with your workshop or whatever it was. I did the same thing when I started. I bought a $2,500 course for building a video business and I've got a credit card to do it, but I built my entire business on it. So it worked out great and it was definitely worth it. But I am terrible with money. I have a horrible relationship with money.

Christian Brim (15:41.807)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (15:51.07)
I am afraid of making a lot of money. It's really it's like I'm afraid of success. I'm from a tiny little farm town in Wisconsin. So there's not millionaires everywhere. And like people from my town don't become a big deal. So I have a weird psychological. So there's a there's a book on my shelf that my mentor gave me to call the psychology of money. He's like, you need to read this because that'll help you with that. But anyway, I learned all about profit first. I got the different bank accounts and the whole nine, but I just never implemented it.

Christian Brim (15:54.096)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (16:10.032)
Mmm.

Graham Kuhn (16:20.61)
But I will say friends of mine who have done it who have been in the video space swear by it. They're like profit first profit first. So I know it works. I'm just naughty.

Christian Brim (16:31.162)
Well, your story is not unusual. think, and I write about this in my book. There's a whole chapter around, you know, profit first being a tool and the mindset and the intent around money is critical. Like the tool won't work unless your mindset's right. And a lot of people, including myself, well, I'd say virtually everybody comes into business ownership with some

Graham Kuhn (16:44.078)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (17:00.846)
baggage around money what they've learned about it and the beliefs around it and It takes some time to unpack You mentioned in the green room, you know wanting to talk about you know pricing and charging enough and One of my my favorite stories on that is a guy by the name of Cliff Ravensclaw He was on the show a couple years ago You can go listen to that. He was an og

a podcaster, he and his wife did a podcast on lost and every week when the episode come out, they would, they would break it down and he got into podcast. You know, this is very early on. So he, he would coach people that wanted to start a podcast and at that time it was a lot around equipment. And so he would sell equipment and help them set it up and teach them how. And this guy that he had sold some equipment to.

Graham Kuhn (17:37.262)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (18:01.082)
had said, I'm having this problem. Can I schedule some time to consult? And he goes, yeah, it's an hour and it's $250, $250, something like that. And he said, great, we'll talk next week. And then Cliff is sitting there and he's like, you know, the manufacturer's got a 1-800 number and he could probably call them and they could fix his problem for free. And so he emails his client and he goes, thanks.

I still want to meet next week. And so he gets on Skype or whatever it was, it wasn't zoom and he's five minutes early for the call and the clients on the call and, the client describes the problem and cliff says, well do this. And, he did. And literally in 60 seconds, he'd solved the problem. The time the, for the appointment had not even arrived yet. And the guy's like, great, send me a bill. And cliff's like, I

can't send you a bill. He goes, why? He goes, well, we didn't even meet for the hour and and like it only took and he's like, I don't care. You fix my problem. Send me a bill. He had to argue with him with Cliff to get him to send a bill. And in Cliff's mind, he hadn't worked hard. He didn't earn that money. Yeah. And he really had to unpack that.

Graham Kuhn (19:22.978)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Christian Brim (19:30.138)
To figure out like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not. This is not right. And, but I, I like that story because there's all kinds of bullshit that we have in our heads and beliefs around money that affect our business decisions. so what you wanted to talk about it, what, what, how, how have those

money beliefs that you've brought into the business affected how you do business.

Graham Kuhn (20:01.623)
Yeah. Yeah, I just really like talking about it because I know that, especially for your listeners, a creative podcast, there's creatives out there who think if they charge a lot of money, either they're ripping people off or they're not or it's not art anymore, or the the starving artists trope and what I learned from mentor because I was the same way when I started I'm like, man, nobody's gonna pay me $300.

Christian Brim (20:20.195)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (20:29.07)
for a video $400 what it takes me you know I'm making a small salary at the church and what it takes me a couple hours to do this I'm gonna ask for $500 it was insane because I had this thinking where I wasn't valuing myself I wasn't valuing what I was providing for the client so it was imposter syndrome limited beliefs and all that but I like to talk about it because I want people to know that you set your value

And and you need to know what you are worth. You're solving problems to your story about Cliff. It's like that story I've heard where it's a painter and they come and they paint paint something for somebody and it takes an hour and they ask like five thousand dollars for it. And they're like, but it only took you an hour. And it's like, no, it didn't take me an hour. It took me 25 years of experience of that. can deliver this beautiful so quickly. That's the value.

Christian Brim (21:23.056)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (21:28.654)
And so it's not an hourly wage. It's not based on I don't even I don't charge a lot of video people charge half days and day rates. We charge by the project. I don't I don't believe in charging by the hour. I don't believe in in line line iteming things like reason this camera. So it's one hundred dollars a day and all that. I believe in the project and the finished project and the value for the customer and the way that you can get over pricing.

Christian Brim (21:38.672)
Mm.

Graham Kuhn (21:54.984)
is that when you're finding the right clients, like I'm not going to do a video for the local coffee shop, because it would take them so many new customers to get a return on that. Let's even say if I did a thousand dollar video, like a low video for a thousand dollars at five dollars a couple, would that take 200 new customers to even break even with that? Like, dude, I'm good, but I'm not going to get the local coffee shop tune in. But if I'm.

Christian Brim (22:18.202)
Right.

Graham Kuhn (22:21.154)
doing a video for a luxury custom home builder that's selling a $3 million home and they're going to net $300,000 from it. $10,000 in video work to profit $300,000 is a drop in the bucket. it's psychologically, if you're knowing the value of what it's going to do for your customer, it just takes that pressure off of, well, can they afford it? Am I charging too much? It's like, no, dude, what I'm providing them

has value, it's going to get them a return. And so I need to be compensated for it. That's, that was the mind shift that that I needed to understand the value that I'm providing. It's not about the number of hours, it's about my experience, and how I'm going to help that person make more money.

Christian Brim (23:07.044)
That's you've nailed it. I I I'll go a step further. Yes, I think that People especially creatives have a hard time charging what they're worth understanding their own value, right? But but I I was on a podcast recently and I said, you know Here's the dirty little secret is it really doesn't matter whether you value yourself or not because the customer and only the customer can determine the value you can't Right and

Graham Kuhn (23:18.796)
Yeah. Yeah.

Graham Kuhn (23:32.418)
They set the price. Yep. Yep.

Christian Brim (23:36.314)
To your example, I was doing a workshop on profit first for creatives and this videographer was talking about his customers and he had two very distinct types of customers. One were non-profit, one were not. His deliverables were essentially the same, but the perceived value and therefore the price was radically different between those two. And I think a lot of times we get caught up in what we do.

Graham Kuhn (23:53.794)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (24:06.38)
our experience, our skill set, and that's largely irrelevant. But it's hard to get out of our own way because that's what we focus on because that's what we think is important.

Graham Kuhn (24:06.552)
Yeah.

Graham Kuhn (24:17.216)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (24:21.344)
It's also knowing that one thing I learned from a coach was even even my first day doing video as as an entrepreneur, even when I met with the CEO of the $500 million franchise home building company, I knew more about how video worked in marketing than he did. Even if I knew this much more, that's the value. So I'm coming in like Graham Kuhn from

little farm town in Wisconsin. I don't know shit. I don't know. And it's like, no, I know more than he does, even though he's the super successful, know, you know, me, my mindset is like, you CEOs are on a pedestal. They're so successful. I can't touch them. Then you have conversations with them. You're like, Hey, I do know more about this than they do. And that's another point I make all the time is like the doing the work really builds the confidence. The more you do that, the more you meet with those people.

Christian Brim (24:55.151)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (25:08.421)
Joe.

Graham Kuhn (25:16.044)
And you realize, man, I do I know what I'm doing, man. I do have a value at really, really boost the confidence and gets you over that imposter syndrome.

Christian Brim (25:26.564)
Well, yeah, because that was your first unknown that you ran into was the this feeling and of being an imposter and that was I'm glad you brought that back up because that was going to be my question is like, how did you solve that? And it sounds like you solved that through reps.

Graham Kuhn (25:41.558)
Yeah, that and also the reps of doing the work. But then, of course, you know, feedback, the more clients you have that are happy, it makes you feel better and all that. But just believing that or knowing not even believing. But like I said, knowing that I know more about this stuff than my clients. That's why they want to hire me. I did an interview with Valerie, Dr. Valerie Young, who is the world expert on imposter syndrome. And one thing I love that she said was imposter syndrome.

is like you saying that your clients are too stupid to figure out that you don't know what you're doing. And that really shifted my perspective. I'm like, you know, you're right. I'm basically saying like, they're so dumb. They don't know that I'm a fraud. And it just realizing like. Right, like how dumb are they to hire me, but realizing like, man, they want to hire you because you can help them, you know, more than they do. I don't care what your industry is. If somebody wants to hire you for it, it's because you.

Christian Brim (26:25.454)
And they're hiring me anyway.

Graham Kuhn (26:39.774)
no more than they do and you can help them. That was, that was a big mindset shift for me and getting over the leg. And I'll tell you the, can tell you the exact moment it happened was chief marketing officer, big hundreds of millions of dollars a year revenue chief marketing officer for that company. I explained to him my concept for a brand story video, which is basically interviewing the client, making them comfortable, talking about who they are really a lot about why they do what they do and what makes them different and just

storytelling and neuroscience and like, you know, how the brain works and all of that. And I was like, I think your franchises need that. And of course, I'm sweating like, you know, nervous. And he looks at me and he says, that is fucking genius. Bro, that moment for that man to say that to me as I'm sitting there sweating, thinking he's some big successful chief marketing officer for him to say my idea was genius.

That was it. I was like, my gosh, I blew me away, dude. I can almost tear up. And that was like seven years ago while I was still working at the day job.

Christian Brim (27:39.759)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (27:50.168)
I love that. I absolutely love that. Okay, so what about pricing still is an issue for you?

Graham Kuhn (28:01.752)
I honestly, I'm pretty good with it now. am like, well, I will say I do have a bit of a sales background in that I used to work at Crunch Fitness and Valley Total Fitness and Gold's Gym. And so I went to their quote unquote sales training and learned to ask for money. So that, you know, it's uncomfortable to ask for money, but I do have a background in that. So I'm comfortable asking for money. But it's.

Christian Brim (28:05.327)
Okay.

Graham Kuhn (28:30.126)
always when I'm going to raise my prices, right? Anytime I'm in a growth mode in my business, I'm always scared. Like, in 2019, when I first started doing this, I was charging $2,500 for a brand story video. That was almost my monthly salary at my job. That was terrifying. Then a year or so later, my mentors like you need to raise your price. Now it's gonna be 3500. I'm like, Are you serious? Dude, nobody's gonna pay me 3500.

Christian Brim (28:36.036)
Hmm.

Graham Kuhn (28:57.302)
And every year we would raise it and raise it. just just the more you do it, gets more comfortable. But also, I also believe in the what are they called? The collaborative close. Like I'm talking to my client in the sales meeting. We're coming to a solution that's going to help them, whether that's a brand story video and three testimonials or it's a testimony on an FAQ video. I feel like we come to it together. And so I don't feel like I'm, quote unquote, selling them.

I feel like I'm being compensated for a solution to their problem. And so it's just putting myself in that mindset of serving them and helping them. And they know that that they're going to have to pay me for it. And I'll say that right into the beginning of the meeting, because there's nothing worse than somebody being like, let me think about it. So right in the beginning of the meeting, it's like at the end, I we've already we've already kind of talked about your problems. We're going to discuss options.

And at the end of this meeting, I'm to give you a price. And I just want you to give me the respect of saying yes or no. Don't say, think about it, or we're going to figure out what you have to think about, because also I pre-qualify and I make sure all of the decision makers are in the room in that meeting, because I don't want to tell Christian all about it. And then Christian goes, sounds great, man. I'll relay it to my boss. It never, it's just that loses all its muster. So decision makers are in the room.

Christian Brim (30:19.16)
Right.

Graham Kuhn (30:24.238)
I tell them the beginning of the meeting, I'm going to give you a price at the end, just say yes or no. And we're still friends literally no matter what happens. And then I give them the price and I just, this was what my mentor told me. He's like, give him the price and say, is that doable? And shut the fuck up. That's what he would say. And he would say, he would also say, don't be a bitch. If you're in your head, it's $9,000. You put $9,000 on that paper. You don't.

Christian Brim (30:30.287)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (30:39.961)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (30:55.022)
be a bitch and go, oh, but they probably won't go for it. I'm gonna put 8,000. I mean, it was great lessons, man. And also me never growing up around money, not realizing there's plenty of people that five grand, nine grand is like nothing to them. So for me, I'm like asking for a mortgage or a house or a car. And they're like, yeah, no, we take cash.

Christian Brim (30:59.524)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (31:19.748)
Yeah. Do you think, I mean, I I've never really asked this question, but do you think that, creative entrepreneurs for the most part are uncomfortable with selling? You had some background training on it, but yeah, cause I think what you said really, it resonated with me. Like people don't want to feel like they're selling somebody. Like they have this idea of what that is and it's, it's around like,

Graham Kuhn (31:33.282)
I do.

Christian Brim (31:49.774)
convincing somebody to part with money for something they don't really want. But that's, I mean, that's not sales. It can be, but that's not what it should be.

Graham Kuhn (32:00.205)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (32:04.736)
away or the way another mentor of mine put it that I thought was really, really great was, like you said, if you're thinking you're selling somebody or you force them to buy something that they don't want, like, I mean, that's how I learned to do it. I mean, I was at Valley Total Fitness trying to sell $600 in personal training to a single mom who could barely afford her membership. And I'm like, what can we get you to do to start today and gross, gross, icky sales. But the way my mentor, another mentor put it was

If you believe in what you do, if you believe that what you do can truly help the person across the table from you. So for me, talking about different types of videos that can help their business, I truly believe in that. I believe it can help you. I believe that this could be the solution to your problems. If I believe in that, I need to share that with the world. Otherwise, I am being totally selfish, keeping it to myself. If I can change somebody's business, but I'm too afraid to talk about it.

Christian Brim (32:57.475)
Absolutely.

Yeah.

Graham Kuhn (33:05.226)
I'm being selfish. So it's not sales. It's being like, let me help you. If you truly believe what you do helps people, it's just so much easier. So for photographers out there, mean, brand, brand photography, lifestyle photography, like that really helps a business. So don't be afraid to ask for that money, man. I mean, it's really, really going to help them. So you've got to have that mindset that you're not selling them. You're you're providing a solution and it's selfish.

to keep it to yourself. That's a little Catholic guilt trip.

Christian Brim (33:39.086)
No, I think it's valid. I was talking to a client recently, he and his wife have a wedding photography business where they do most of their work in Napa Valley. And as we were talking, he was like, you know, we target

we work with wedding planners, but we're looking for people that someone that's having a wedding that they're gonna spend 500 to $800,000. And I'm like, what? Like, who does that? right? But that's my point of view. That's my experience. Like the fact that other people do it as outrageous as it may seem.

Graham Kuhn (34:14.136)
I know.

Christian Brim (34:28.174)
doesn't mean that they don't. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying, we get get locked into our own heads. Like we wouldn't do that. So therefore, why would we ask somebody else to do it?

Graham Kuhn (34:39.712)
Yes, I 500,000 800,000 at a wedding. But then you see these like amazing like Indian weddings that are like two days long. There's been like, and especially like California. I mean, there's a lot of people man even here in Atlanta when I'm driving down toward the city. There are so many dude, so many suburbs of like three to $10 million homes suburbs man, like

Christian Brim (34:48.676)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (35:06.896)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (35:07.662)
50, 100 houses that are like five, I'm like, what do these people do? But they're out there and they need solutions to problems just like everybody. So yeah, and then that's what my original mentor coach guy who gave me the psychology of money was a concept I could not grasp. He goes, man, when somebody buys from you the exchange of money, it's just a transfer of energy. And I'm like, what does that mean, man? He's like, it's not like they're taking

Christian Brim (35:09.423)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (35:32.741)
Hmm.

Graham Kuhn (35:37.006)
$2,000 cash out of their pocket and give it. He's like, it's just like we agreed to this and now poof, magically there's money in my account. And it's just, it's just an exchange of energy. And I'm like, man, that is so woo woo. But it really, it really gave me a perspective on it. It's not like I'm got a stack of cash and I'm giving it to you. It's just an agreement and exchange of energy. I'm like, that was, that was really powerful for me.

Christian Brim (35:45.69)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:03.866)
Well, yes, and I will add that what people are willing to spend money on is unique and personal to them. Like no two people value the same things and therefore will spend money on the same things. this, this came to light a few years ago. was attending a view of, I was attending an event with my wife and I wanted to park valet.

Graham Kuhn (36:14.327)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:32.92)
because we were running late and she's like, no, just pull around park in the parking garage. I'm like, okay, so we park in the parking garage and we're walking to the venue and one of my colleagues comes along and he's worth like nine, not maybe 10 figures, like a lot of money. He flies his own jet. He is a pilot, right? And we're walking over there and she said, we'll see so and so didn't

Graham Kuhn (36:33.155)
Mm.

Christian Brim (37:02.756)
didn't pay valet and I said something because yeah, I'm too cheap to pay valet. I'm not gonna pay for valet. And I said to him, yeah, someone that writes $50,000 jet fuel checks every month can't call themselves cheap. And then he just paused and he just kind of giggled to himself. But my point of that story is that...

Graham Kuhn (37:19.235)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (37:27.318)
Money was no object to him. He could literally buy whatever he wanted, but he wasn't going to pay for valet and that that that theme is true in every human like you know, you're you're going to run into people that are going to say I'm not going to pay you for that because They don't value it and that's totally fine

Graham Kuhn (37:33.624)
Mm-hmm.

Graham Kuhn (37:48.692)
And that's like the story how you and I both put workshops and courses on a credit card, because we're like, for me, it was $2,500. And I'm like, that's a lot of money. But it was so worth it to me because I truly believe what it was gonna do for my business in my life. And thank God it was right. But to your point, then I won't spend $30 on a valet. Like, but I will, though. I mean, I'm like, my wife and are the same where she's like, No, we'll just park

Christian Brim (37:54.949)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (38:11.375)
Right.

Graham Kuhn (38:18.072)
four blocks away and walk. like, I'd rather spend 30 bucks to be parked right here for the convenience of it. But yeah, that's that's so true. It's really up to the person back to what you said your clients are going to determine your price or your value, or what they'll pay you for, for, for what you're providing for them. It's not on you to feel like I'm worth $5,000. I'm worth 10. If your clients say you are, then you are, you know,

Christian Brim (38:45.808)
That's, that's correct. And the people that won't pay you what, what you want. I'm not going to say what you're worth because who knows what you're worth, right? Whatever you're asking for is they absolutely a hundred percent won't value what you do. And it's the, it's that, that, that paradox, like the, the amount that people pay sets the perceived value. It's it's like, um,

Graham Kuhn (38:53.804)
Yep. What you're asking for what? Yeah. What your price is.

Graham Kuhn (39:10.348)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (39:13.57)
Mercedes-Benz back in the 70s, they were new to the US market. One year, they didn't do a model change, they just doubled their price and their market share soared. Why? Because now they're a luxury, but the product didn't change.

Graham Kuhn (39:24.63)
I didn't know that.

Graham Kuhn (39:30.891)
I guess I didn't know that story. I love that.

Christian Brim (39:33.176)
Yeah, but that's what I'm saying is that if I pay you a lot of money, I obviously value it. But if I pay you a little amount of money, I don't value it.

Graham Kuhn (39:40.342)
Yep.

let me let me make a point about people who won't pay your price or won't pay what you're asking is, they're not a good client, then they're not a good fit for whatever you're doing. That's a great lesson that I learned is that if somebody is trying to haggle a price with you or nickel and dime you for me, that's not a good fit. That's not somebody I want to work because if it's going to be an ongoing project, they're going to be a pain in the ass.

Christian Brim (40:13.776)
100 %

Graham Kuhn (40:13.902)
And I'm just at a point in my I'm at a point in my life and my work, dude, I just want to be happy. I want to be full of gratitude and joyful. I don't want to feel miserable. And I've worked with clients I knew were not a good fit or I lowered my price to work it for them in their budget. And it's a freaking nightmare. And you can't be desperate to be like, oh, my gosh, I need a project. have to be. So I'm going to lower my price and get it. And then the soul sucking that happens to you is just not worth it. So

If somebody starts saying, that's that's too expensive. Or can you can you can you make it less? I can make it more like it's just that they're not going to be a good fit and they're going to be a pain in the ass to work with. And I had I can't I can't emphasize this enough. You want to work with people that you enjoy working with. It just makes your life so much more fun. I look forward to working with my clients. I don't dread any. Dude, I love Mondays.

Mondays are my favorite day because I like get to go back to like working with people and, getting back to work. And, but when you have those nightmare clients, because they're not a good fit, it's just, it sucks. So if they won't pay your price, it's okay. You don't have to lower it. Just find somebody that will they're out there. There's somebody out there who's doing a 500 to $800,000 wedding.

Christian Brim (41:28.57)
No.

Christian Brim (41:34.512)
Exactly. Exactly. Chris Doe told a story on LinkedIn recently about how someone had he was and I don't know if this was a current thing or something happened in the past, but the the budget that the he got was $100,000, you know an RFP type thing and he submitted his bid for like a hundred and eighteen thousand or 128 thousand and

Graham Kuhn (41:54.552)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (42:02.634)
they came back and said, didn't you read that the, the, the budget was a hundred thousand. And he goes, well, look, I know how this is going to go down. You're going to want to make changes as this project goes and you're going to come back and, then we're going to have to adjust it. And then I'm working after renegotiate the price. And he said, I know how all this works. I've done this a long time. So I'm just building that into the proposal and my, my price is, you know, what it is.

And they sat there and contemplated it and they're like, yeah, you're right. And they took the price, right? So even what they say is the price isn't necessarily the price. I'll give you one more example, and I've shared this on the show before, when I was early on and I still thought that hourly pricing was a thing to do, I had somebody came to us and they had not done their taxes in a couple of years.

Graham Kuhn (42:41.326)
True. Yeah, have you go ahead, go ahead.

Christian Brim (42:58.192)
And they said, well, what would you charge us to get it up to speed? And I said, well, you know, it's going to be $100 an hour for the bookkeeping. And he flips his lid. He's like, I don't even pay my attorney $100 an hour. And I'm like, okay. And so I went back and I sat there and I thought, okay, what's worst case scenario? I don't know what I'm getting into, but what's the worst case scenario? And then I like added 20 % to it. And I gave him a price. I don't remember what it was, $3,000, $4,000. And he goes,

Okay. But the thing is he ended up paying more because I didn't do $100 an hour, right? He ended up paying more than if I charged him hourly. But that's that's humans. We're completely irrational. But we think we're irrational.

Graham Kuhn (43:38.232)
Yep.

Graham Kuhn (43:42.99)
How many times how many times does that happen to you where you've given a price to somebody and they're like, that's way outside my budget or that's crazy. Or, you know, and you just walk away like, okay, you know, best of luck to you, I can refer you to somebody or you know, you try to help them but they walk away because your price is so outrageous. And then they go find somebody on the cheap cheap. And it's a disaster. And then they come back to you.

And they're like, well, I worked with somebody and it wasn't good. You you just like, wow, I've really showed my value now. Like you get what you pay for. It's so true. Yeah, that happens to me all the time.

Christian Brim (44:12.984)
All the damn time. All the damn time.

Christian Brim (44:25.848)
Yeah, we could talk about pricing for days. Graham, how do people find focus films if they want to learn more?

Graham Kuhn (44:28.0)
Right.

Graham Kuhn (44:34.318)
Yeah. The website is focused films.com and then I am always active on LinkedIn. So connect with me on LinkedIn and send me a message. Follow me, connect with me. love to, I just, I love networking on, on LinkedIn. Always trying to build up my, my followers and connections. And I think I'm at almost 6,000 now, which I, for me, I think that's pretty awesome. I'm not, I'm not a 30,000, 50,000 follower guy, but a 6,000. That's pretty good.

Christian Brim (44:55.684)
That is, that's pretty good.

Christian Brim (45:00.854)
It's a curated list.

Graham Kuhn (45:03.476)
It is a curated list. It's all I mean, it's all attorneys and healthcare people and marketing people. It's my people. It's my ideal clients.

Christian Brim (45:05.039)
Yes.

Christian Brim (45:12.72)
Yeah, absolutely. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, hit that little message button, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear, and I'll get rid of Graham. Until next time. This is not as bad as it's been. So until next time, ta ta for now.

Graham Kuhn (45:29.656)
They don't like the naughty words.